Victron 3000 multiplus II only out put 2400 watts so not the full 3000watts each (terribly expensive)

[pilgrimvalley]

in a recent will prowse video he connected 2 Victron Multiplus II inverters with to get split phase and i think only out put 4600 watts with 5000 being drawn from the battery bank....

so 4600watt power output from a 5000watt battery draw is a 92 percent efficiency from battery to inverter output to start out with.... so lose 400 watts in that part..... alone

did not hear the standby power draw if you are not pulling a load yet....still reviewing this...

Victron prices make 2 PowerJack 8000 watt units look like a bargain, and the 15000 watt PowerJack is cheap for sure;>>>> I think I paid approximately $700 or so for it a couple years ago...

can only run 2300 watts out of each Multiplus without overloading the Victron Multiplus so they must use the Chinese math also in their naming??? and not UL listed either...

seems like "Victron is for you if you have a ton of money" HA Ha HA

I am starting to try to measure inverter efficiency at least in the design stage....(the thinking about it stages) 

thinking standby power might be something but i run mine 24 hours a day (likely wasting a fair amount of electricity for sure)

i do not own any Victron inverters at this time but did note it does not output a lot in all reality for the big bucks....

Happy New Year!!!

[Sid Genetry Solar]

4 hours ago, pilgrimvalley said:

so 4600watt power output from a 5000watt battery draw is a 92 percent efficiency from battery to inverter output to start out with.... so lose 400 watts in that part..... alone

That's pretty good efficiency for a power inverter. 

Let me know if you can find a comparably sized power inverter in the PJ price range that has actual efficiency >92%, then we can talk down at Victron.

Hint: there aren't any.

 

4 hours ago, pilgrimvalley said:

Victron prices make 2 PowerJack 8000 watt units look like a bargain, and the 15000 watt PowerJack is cheap for sure;>>>> I think I paid approximately $700 or so for it a couple years ago...

yah, but you're only going to get about 3kw continuous out of those PJs in the first place.  With zero reliability guarantee.

 

If you buy a Victron, you're expecting quality, reliability, service, support, an ecosystem ("equipment that works together"), and a solid feature set.

If you buy a PJ, consider yourself fortunate if you can check any of the above boxes.

 

 

Keep in mind, a comparison is only fair if all items in the comparison are on the same playing field.  Not only are Victron and PJ not on the same playing field, they aren't even in the same universe.

 

4 hours ago, pilgrimvalley said:

can only run 2300 watts out of each Multiplus without overloading the Victron Multiplus so they must use the Chinese math also in their naming???

Look a bit closer.  A large number of inverter manufacturers like to rate their units in VA--volt amps--instead of watts.  An inverter rated for 3000 "volt amps" could very well end up maxing out at 2300 "true watts", depending on the power factor of the loads connected.  (True Watts = Volt-Amps * [Load Power Factor]) where Power Factor is a number between 0-1 that measures how cleanly the load matches a pure resistive load.  A pure resistive load will (should!) have a power factor of 1.0.

Technically, they aren't "fibbing" on ratings, though the practice could certainly be considered misleading.

 

4 hours ago, pilgrimvalley said:

and not UL listed either...

I'm actually a little surprised that this does appear to be the case--at least for the 48v reviewed by Will Prowse.  Certain select MultiPlus units are U.L. cert, but most of them apparently aren't.  Surprise!

[dickson]

I   do not own any Victron inverters at this time but did note it does not output a lot in all reality for the big bucks.                   I  do not own any Victron inverters  either   but Victron  is the best  for RV .            Darren iwho is Sean neighbor  in the other forum  found that  Victron  is ahead of    most inverter company   with  20000 watts  .continous output .  

[Sid Genetry Solar]

25 minutes ago, dickson said:

Darren iwho is Sean neighbor  in the other forum  found that  Victron  is ahead of    most inverter company   with  20000 watts  .continous output .  

Huh?

He's got a Growatt 8kw AFAIK.

 

And that Victron "package deal" you posted is using two 10kw Victron inverters, not a "single unit".  So not quite "ahead of everyone else"...

[dickson]

He's got a Growatt 8kw AFAIK .          He is  waiting for  for   a  GS 12kw  .       He only  talk about  a Victron  in the other  forum  when he had problem  with the Growatt .      His Growatt   is working good now  with the new update from  SS .           Victron  is too expensive  .        

[NotMario]

Yeah, 92% at max output is actually quite good.

I have had little time running my [24v] GS6 at maximum to make a good comparison, but the GS seems to range (within 200W to 4000W load) from about 83% to 93%*, with the peak being somewhere around the 3.5K mark. Efficiency markedly decreases as maximum output is approached, probably dropping close to 85% at 6K. The victron probably experiences a similar efficiency curve.

*My GS operates in very cold environment and my loads are mostly resistive. YMWV.

Victron seems to make good equipment, though i don't particularly buy the idea that they're notably "great" in the RV and Marine markets any more than they're decent in any other inverter-centric consumer market - price notwithstanding. IMO, where they stand out is in the system-monitoring market - and their solution still leaves much to be desired - and a hole in your pocket.

FYI, victron usually rates their products in VA, not Watts. Probably helps remove the need to hedge their ratings against poor power factor use cases. The reason big businesses get penalized for poor power factor is because it requires a bigger generator to power the same wattage when the power factor is lower. Engineering wise, rating in VA is probably the most correct metric - albeit confusing for the consumer.

Edited January 2 by NotMario

[pilgrimvalley]

yes, the kit to get 2 Victron multiplus II inverters to only put out small watts with a test showing 92 percent efficiency 

was $4700 dollars plus... that was the kicker...

https://www.currentconnected.com/product/6kva-victron-kit/?ref=cPwLcVc0SW-BjN

right now I am testing with a 3500 watt HF Vevor PSW inverter to try and test / increase efficiency.....for the small loads

but the apples to oranges comparison is you can buy the same amount of output in a PowerJack for about 700 dollars delivered,,, that is the reality...

and there are videos showing the highly touted / very expensive Victron inverters crapping out.... off grid garage had one take a dump in less than a year...i think

 

 

[pilgrimvalley]

the 20,000 watt PSW LF SP PowerJack inverter 130 plus pound beast was $470 delivered so that is 1/10th the price of a Victron (blue plastic is expensive)

what will give you the best return for your investment???

ps: I have a blue Ford front wheel assist 110hp tractor of steel vs a green paint John Deere tractor in the mountains.... economics   🤔😎

I like green paint just expensive to buy....

Edited January 2 by pilgrimvalley
add information

[Sid Genetry Solar]

8 hours ago, NotMario said:

I have had little time running my [24v] GS6 at maximum to make a good comparison, but the GS seems to range (within 200W to 4000W load) from about 83% to 93%*, with the peak being somewhere around the 3.5K mark. Efficiency markedly decreases as maximum output is approached, probably dropping close to 85% at 6K.

Sounds about right....curious if your measured efficiency matches (or is within a few %) of the "Xfrmr Eff." readout on the Stat screen?

The significant loss of efficiency at high loads is pretty much a result of the transformer wire temperature coefficient--the hotter it gets, the higher its resistance = the greater the losses.  (So it's a vicious spiral once things start getting warmed up.)

And don't argue copper vs aluminum--both have a very similar temperature coefficient.  If the 2 different materials were sized appropriately in a comparison, the efficiency curve would be basically the same.

 

6 hours ago, pilgrimvalley said:

the 20,000 watt PSW LF SP PowerJack inverter 130 plus pound beast was $470 delivered so that is 1/10th the price of a Victron (blue plastic is expensive)

what will give you the best return for your investment???

The Victron, hands down.

 

I have yet to hear anyone boasting of "passing their PJ down to their kids."  Or having any resale value.

 

6 hours ago, pilgrimvalley said:

and there are videos showing the highly touted / very expensive Victron inverters crapping out.... off grid garage had one take a dump in less than a year...i think

Lemons happen.  The question is, what kind of customer service did he get?

you already know what kind of customer service you get from PJ, so the "bar to clear" isn't very hard 🙂.

[JIT]

Victron inverters are no doubt expensive but they are well designed/built and have clear and accurate spec's with lots of features.  The electronics are old school but solid.  Frankly, I was hoping GS inverters would be like Victron inverters but with more modernized/simplified electronics and more economical.

 

[Sid Genetry Solar]

49 minutes ago, JIT said:

Frankly, I was hoping GS inverters would be like Victron inverters but with more modernized/simplified electronics and more economical.

We aren't trying to copy anybody...were you referring to that or more of an ecosystem thing?  Or are there specific areas we fall short for your usecase?

[JIT]

2 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

We aren't trying to copy anybody...were you referring to that or more of an ecosystem thing?  Or are there specific areas we fall short for your usecase?

Specifically, GS inverters don't have the proven/tested grid/generator input power assist, inverter paralleling and AC coupling with grid-tied inverters with backfeed charging control via frequency shifting based on battery SOC monitoring (via BMS integration) functions that are available on Victron Multiplus/Quattro inverters.  On the hand, Victron doesn't offer a self-contained split-phase inverter (external autotransformer or minimum 2 required for split phase).

[pilgrimvalley]

for me I do not need or want any sort of grid tie, or any type of gas generator to be controlled by the inverter. so 10 of the 20,000 watt PowerJack psw sp lf inverters at $470 each delivered still gives the best bang for the buck vs 2 victron multiplus II for $4700 dollars.... if a PowerJack goes bad replace it... bolt in bolt out

I do not use a gas generator unless I go to a remote jobsite and have not used one in a long time and will not use a gas generator in my off grid solar build either....

yes >>> not an apples for apples comparison , only comparing the raw inverter output not the bells and whistles that are not needed!!! In my off grid solar set up...

all the extra bells and whistles are nifty but expensive...

my main idea was to bring up efficiency and how many watts would be pulled from the battery bank to get the 92 percent efficiency..

seems many do no take this into effect..

yes there is essentially no warranty with any PowerJack unless it fails within the 1st 14 days then return at the seller expense or if there is shipping damage...

I returned a 13 month old Richmond 240 volt electric water heater this afternoon and they gave me a new replacement....it had a 2 year warranty and out of the blue just quit at 13 months after installation....so that warranty via Menards was great ( unbolt the old one drain it throw it in the truck 2 hours later bolt in the new one in the snow storm )

yes the victron lovers/fan club with lots of money would not say anything bad about the huge expense to buy 2 of them.... please forgive me I am not bashing or disliking the blue plastic Victron in anyway >>>> just comparing raw output of inverter >>>> efficiency >>>> 

yes I know,,,, no warranty ,,,,, on PowerJack 😢🤔😎

I will let you know when the PowerJack dies if & when 🤔

have a great evening,,,, I have a bottle lamb new born in the snow this morning to help keep me awake...😢

 

[NotMario]

On the other hand, the GS is receiving occasional firmware updates. Most of that functionality can be added in firmware. Grid Assist is on my wish-list. And Power-Assist is basically just the reverse of grid-assist anyway. GS lacks the secondary input - but i don't consider that a flaw. I actually think it's presumptuous for an inverter to think it's part of it's role to choose it's own power source.  About as bad as the presumption that it should be responsible for starting a generator. 😄

I don't think there's any particular Victron fan-club here. I'm sure one exists, but i believe this is the GenetrySolar forums, not the Victron Forums. lol
I suppose it could come down to one question: When the zombie apocalypse happens, would you rather have your 10 PJ inverters, or the Victron Equivalent. With the cost factored out, i'd bank on the Victron solution -- because i know the track record is solid. THAT is what you're paying for -- not the capabilities, or even the efficiency. No, the reliability. And the backing, though that obviously wont matter in the zombie apocalypse.

I don't think anybody here has downplayed how expensive Victron is. That is self-evident, although certainly not unique to Victron. Feel free to look at AIMS - which in addition to being expensive, is also seemingly very feature deficient.

If you're wanting efficiency, the inverter is just a part of it. There are fairly big margins in other areas of your system too - like battery round-trip efficiency, or genny efficiency, or solar/wind efficiency. If you're running LA batts, you might as well kiss efficiency goodbye, that ~80% will make even a poor quality inverter look efficient by comparison. Oh, and your typical gas genny efficiency of 20%? --- the inverter is an afterthought at that point.

Edited January 3 by NotMario

[NotMario]

16 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

Sounds about right....curious if your measured efficiency matches (or is within a few %) of the "Xfrmr Eff." readout on the Stat screen?

The significant loss of efficiency at high loads is pretty much a result of the transformer wire temperature coefficient--the hotter it gets, the higher its resistance = the greater the losses.  (So it's a vicious spiral once things start getting warmed up.)

And don't argue copper vs aluminum--both have a very similar temperature coefficient.  If the 2 different materials were sized appropriately in a comparison, the efficiency curve would be basically the same.

Pretty much exactly why i added the note about my operating environment. I doubt very many operate their inverters at freezer temps.

I'll check the Xfmr efficiency value the next time i put some loads on it. The way i calculate efficiency is by dividing AC Watts by DC Watts. The GS doesn't appear to have a value for DC Amps (though it seems to have a calibration placeholder) - my shunt fills that information in - not sure how you could accurately calculate efficiency without that information. You should add this to Web gauge, FYI. 😄

Edited January 3 by NotMario

[Sid Genetry Solar]

7 hours ago, NotMario said:

The GS doesn't appear to have a value for DC Amps (though it seems to have a calibration placeholder)

That's for GS inverters with a negative busbar--which serves as a current sense input.  Rev. C boards all have DC current sense functionality--the question is whether the necessary hardware is present!  (As of yet, none of them do.)

[pilgrimvalley]

my battery is all LiFePO4 at present..... primarily Lischen 272AH cells and Eve LF280k cells, but i also have some 5 k pre-built LIFePO4 batteries in use with built in bms etc

the PowerJack inverters have been running continuously for about 2 years at present....

looking to upsize the inverters in due time.

the inverter is the weak link...

the solar panels were all obtained from Santan Solar in pallet quantities freight shipped so very inexpensive....

charge controllers and other pieces and parts added up...

I am not interested in a noisy petrol powered generator or being grid tied... done that for 20 years in Bolivia(((the noisy gas and or diesel generators before the grid came in))))

yes, if the idiots in charge or terrorists do the dumb things with nuclear weapons, none of this will matter....

I am looking at inverter efficiency and standby watt draw to increase efficiency a bit at the moment,,,,

i am an optimist trying to look on the bright side.....

this was brought up to discuss the energy loss at the inverter to actual energy being available for electrical appliances.....( round trip efficiency /in-efficiency )

as some have touted unproven low standby draw of some inverters I thought that would be a good topic to discuss....

it is known that the LF and some HF inverters of PowerJack and other brands use a lot in standby so force more battery storage and more solar panels....to compensate a bit....

I put this under other as it does not need to stick to any particular inverter brand.

thanks for the lively discussion,,, I am hear to learn from others as to their experiences....and to share some experiences.....

😎👍

Today the 3rd of January, 2023 >>>looks like another 5 inches of snow before noon....about 2-4 inches yesterday so winter is hitting hard in South Dakota at the moment 🤔😎

[pilgrimvalley]

very very large transformers use an oil bath to regulate the high temperatures with radiator fins etc.... not an option for small transformers inside inverters so lots of fans to cool the components or try to get their optimal use size....

I think I was reading that some inverters use small fans and the second fan only comes on when needed.....that was a lf inverter 12000 watt ,,,, forget the brand right now...

keeping the environment of the inverters, batteries, charge controllers etc in the 60 to 75 degree Fahrenheit range is the goal for my off grid solar builds....

heat is the enemy of most all electronics it seems..... 

but at the moment I watch the other end and have the components in an insulated outdoor power shed trying to keep above freezing with a couple incandescent light bulbs....works as well as anything and is very simple low tech solution to the cold....

we always ran a light or two in the well pit on the farm where I grew up in the winter....

I do not have a well pump at the present off grid solar PV build so no problems there... but do have and maintain well pumps at 3 rural rental houses...they are grid connected.... hope the grid is reliable there....

[Sid Genetry Solar]

18 minutes ago, pilgrimvalley said:

very very large transformers use an oil bath to regulate the high temperatures with radiator fins etc....

I don't understand why people believe that "oil filled" in anything produces literal black magic.

All "oil-filled" does is simply conduct heat better (than air!) to a surface that's intended to dissipate the heat.  It absolutely does not make heat "disappear."  (Oil is preferable to water simply by virtue of being electrically inert, as well as not causing corrosion.)

Air isn't a great conductor of heat--but it's more often than not where heat is dissipated.  (That is, unless you're a coal-fired / nuclear power plant that uses river water for cooling.)

 

24 minutes ago, pilgrimvalley said:

not an option for small transformers inside inverters so lots of fans to cool the components or try to get their optimal use size....

Oh people have done it...I've seen photos of people submerging their inverter transformers in a 5-gallon bucket filled with oil.  Of course, then you need circulation pumps to circulate said oil through radiators, and fans to keep the radiators cool--the heat does not magically disappear because oil appeared in the equation.  True, the increased mass of the oil will slow the heat rise--but at the end of the day, it's also going to take a lot longer to cool down!

 

22 minutes ago, pilgrimvalley said:

I think I was reading that some inverters use small fans and the second fan only comes on when needed.....that was a lf inverter 12000 watt ,,,, forget the brand right now...

Yeah, because the one fan is an AC fan wired directly to the inverter's AC output, and there's no way to turn it off!  This is a pretty standard setup in the Chinese LF inverters (i.e. Aims, Sungold Power, possibly Growatt, etc., etc.)

[NotMario]

FWIW, the GS handles my submerged well pump perfectly. More than i can say for my U-Power which otherwise has been a pleasant surprise.

On the topic of inverter efficiency... It's a tough thing to optimize in the general sense. For example, in my case, optimizing low-load efficiency is my biggest bang - since my inverter is rarely run over 600W. So that ~30W standby draw adds up quite a bit. On the other hand, the ~1000W overhead when pushing 6kW is only experienced a few minutes each day - at most. It simply doesn't add up to that much, comparatively...

Also, it did occur to me, that in the video that spurred this topic, he was charging a Tesla. On the topic of charging batteries you'll often find the term "PFC". Only getting 2400W of 3000VA capacity might be perfectly expected if the Tesla charger doesn't have good PFC. Indeed, that would be a power factor of 0.8 - which according to google is about the worst case for charging a Tesla.

Edited January 3 by NotMario

[pilgrimvalley]

yes, I think it seems the pfc has an optimum sweet spot for inverters.... and that is a big part of efficiency question also...

pfc - power factor coefficient or something   >>> I need to write these abbreviations down someplace in a list until i get them memorized....and interpret/understand them better

I appreciate the feed back as I continue to learn more each day....

so essentially, the will prowse YouTube video needed a larger blue plastic Victron set of inverters ((( to make the split phase

 needs a set of the expensive victron inverterts))) to be more efficient at the high load (amp draw) tesla charging....it was not a lack of battery but more likely maybe/possibly an under powered inverter set up not giving enough output....

I don't have a well pump at the current solar off grid PV system >>>> as i have rural water piped to the farm house and an artesian well for livestock....

got hammered with 8-12 inches more snow yesterday...i think it is about 17 inches deep now....hope the skid loader battery charged up enough overnight. and the snow stops 🤔😢🤔😎

hard to get it all done,,,,had another hair sheep have twins in the snow yesterday also.... busy busy....

cheers all, 

lots of snow to brush off the 45 degree angle mounted solar panels today still....🤔

 

[pilgrimvalley]

a 10kva Victron system from current connected was more than $7400 US dollars so really getting spendy....

at least that was the approximate price in the affiliate link via the will prowse video.... for a bigger set of Victron inverters.... to output split phase....

that expensive Victron price tag definitely makes one look for a more economical efficient inverter for off-grid solar PV builds>>> perhaps better than the piece of paper scam PowerJack sellers on eBay have done....before disappearing as a seller and new sellers popping up.....have to be leery of those also if shipped from china with extended shipping times....

I have been told "jack" @ PowerJack is concentrating om building his 30000 watt modular inverters 1st. as that is what he is selling....his so-called flagship inverter line...

u-power is a PowerJack inverter made in the same factory just different labels....along with several other relabels sold around the world....

sorry, to hear your u-power inverter output experience was not so good, but is still great feedback,,,, thanks🤔😎

 

 

 

[pilgrimvalley]

green power , superpower, powertank, upower relabeled PowerJack inverters are just a few of the PowerJack built relabels... there are more