12000W LF AMG tripping input and output breakers

[Lener]

I bought a 12000w LF AGM, problem from day one , cannot be connected  the hardwire simultaneously with the house power, tripping the grid panel breaker , with the first installed I had a  push button circuit breaker on the battery but kept on blowing it I removed it then blew up all the mosfet and other parts in smoke . I now replaced all the damaged parts , with extras protection I can use the receptacle but not the hardwire if I attempt to do I will get sudden low battery warning and tripping all circuits breakers.

please any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[dickson]

 I can use the receptacle but not the hardwire if I attempt to do I will get sudden low battery warning and tripping all circuits breakers.

This picture  is  for  off-grid  120vac  only .    This picture  show the connection  can not be  conneted  L1  N  L2  to the  house  .     Sorry but I think you  MISS WIRED   for the house .     .      SEE  the ebay  instruction  for AMG  connection .    

[Sid Genetry Solar]

10 hours ago, Lener said:

cannot be connected  the hardwire simultaneously with the house power,

A PJ LF inverter is not a grid-tie inverter!  You WILL blow it up if you connect it to a live electrical panel.

A LF inverter must be connected to a separate breaker panel not connected to any other power source.

[Lener]

No. No. You missing my point. I am quite aware that unit is not a grid tied  but it is a charger , ATS and UPS and it has an  AC input grid connector for these options .if I use the  hardwire L1 + N1   which 115v output load  “ example  if a fan simultaneously with AC input  then AC input breaker will tripped.

Dickson , you mentioned my wiring is wrong, isn’t the hardwire block  L1 + N1  = 110.  L2 + N2=110 since I only have needs for 110v., as factory default double loop ….. my picture indicated L1 +N1 as per instructions.. please advise on wiring…

My 3000w is functioning on the same type of setup and options 

[dickson]

Dickson , you mentioned my wiring is wrong, isn’t the hardwire block  L1 + N1  = 110.  L2 + N2=110 since I only have needs for 110v., as factory default double loop ….. my picture indicated L1 +N1 as per instructions.. please advise on wiring…

YES  for 110vac   at the inverter receptacle   is ok and will work for 110vac appliance .   Disconnect the  110vac  AC input   and see if it work  without tripping the breaker .   The factory  are known for miss wired the   AC charger INPUT .     I know now   your AMG is setup for 110vac only  and the wiring is good .     All my PJ inverter  do not have the charger  board  so I cab  not show how it is suppose to be wired  internally .       I just bought a 9kw PJ inverter  and the factory  miss wired the output  board  and I fix  before  pushung the start switch                                     My 3000w is functioning on the same type of setup and options        I   suggest  you open the  3000w  and the   charger board  is the same as  the 12000w  .        Check  and wire  both inverter  the same  internally .   Make  sure both  inverter has the  rev 11.3 control board .  

[Lener]

Dickson,

Thank you for the information  I also suspected of miss wiring as well  .unfortunately my other unit  is a Powmr and will not help. Power jack folks are not that supportive as well I have asking for manual and wiring schematic and  questioning the wiring I have not getting any response. Attached a couple pictures ( single receptacle outlet ( working fine but hardwire is the problem) ) has 3 wires B R (Y )as Ground but hardwire has an additional white with markings and with current sensor  wire from the transformer although there is a same wire to breaker as well. 
those folks from walnut California or China not responding from email.

Thanks again..

 

[Sid Genetry Solar]

A possibility here (though it wouldn't explain why FETs were blowing or your battery breaker constantly tripping) could be that the AC Input wires are swapped (i.e. Neutral goes to Line, and Line goes to Neutral.)

The PJ inverter only has a single relay on the input side, supposedly disconnecting Line.  Neutral is a direct pass-through.

This means that you can very easily create a dead short on the AC line across "AC Output Line" and "AC Input Neutral"--because said terminals would be directly wired together.

You can check this with a DMM set to AC volts: what voltage do you get across AC Output Neutral and AC Input Neutral.  (Also check AC Output Line and AC Input Line.)  Both should be ~0vAC.  If you get ~120vAC, then that's likely a part of the problem.  But does not quite explain the battery breaker tripping/FETs blowing (although both of those would be expected for an AC output backfeed).

 

If the "other inverter" you mention/show is a PowMr 3000W, then it's a completely different beast, being an HF inverter.  The different set of operational rules could explain why it's seemingly working fine in a similar scenario.

[dickson]

 with extras protection I can use the receptacle but not the hardwire if I attempt to do I will get sudden low battery warning and tripping all circuits breakers.

IT seem  like you can use the  110vac receptacle  without  any connection to the  inverter  INPUT .     This mean the  charger board  is bad or miss wired .    Can  you return the inverter back to the seller ?       The seller  and nobody  from Powerjack  will tell you how to repair if it is a wiring issue or if  charger board  is bad  or control board is bad  .    

[Lener]

Sid,

Although I just purchased the unit  and arrived last month from Superpower goes by  many  name Names on EBay ( Products description are  with the same wording)I Had a couple communication with “Jelly” but suddenly went silent.I would love to return and exchange but yet to hear back  Jelly after a few emails.

I did check the voltage on both block out puts as you will see 
N1 + G =113 and L2 +G=113  is this normal? ( see pictures)

 

 

 

 

[Sid Genetry Solar]

37 minutes ago, Lener said:

I did check the voltage on both block out puts as you will see 
N1 + G =113 and L2 +G=113  is this normal? ( see pictures)

Well, you're measuring both ends of the black jumper wire--so of course the reading will be the same in both locations.

In short, the PJ "AMG" setup provides 2 separate 120v output taps from the transformer on these terminals.  (The inverter only regulates from one of them, which is why charge is 120v input only.)

If you put the 2 output taps in series, you get 240v.  And if you put them in parallel, you get 120v total output.

 

Technically, the chassis should be loosely floated (by 10nF decoupling caps on the output board) between Line and Neutral--so the meter should be reading ~60vAC.  That it's reading 113vAC kinda indicates that the chassis is shorted to the other output line.  (Check from chassis ground to the red jumper wire--betcha it'll be 0v.)

If that is the case, then if you're wiring chassis ground to breaker panel ground (which will be bonded to Neutral), you're likely deadshorting the output of the inverter due to an internal wiring issue.  Which would explain all the breakers tripping & blowing the FETs when it's connected to the breaker panel.

[Lener]

Thank you all for all these informations , as much that I would like to return this unit , the seller Superpower is not  accepting return  from EBay site..I am not sure how to resolve this issue . I am  sure there is a wiring issue ( trying to connect power conditioner  , will get ground fault error) , the picture attached is a stand-alone unit  but only the batteries  …

 N1 and ground chassis = 114 v. , is the white wire with orange markings from the transformer  should be at the blocking out L2 of course looping with N1?

[dickson]

 N1 and ground chassis = 114 v.                        Miss wired at the factory   .          N1   to  ground  should  0  vac .    Powerjack has  floating neutral  if wired correctly .    I  will post picture   of my  rev 11.1  control board  tommorow .      This control board  is similar to   to your .                Superpower goes by  many  name Names on EBay       He is David    and  I   buy  many  defective  parts  on ebay  but never  leave a  review .     

[dickson]

N1 and ground chassis =  40vac  when  inverter is off-grid  and  NOT connected  to  house .        When connected  to house  N1 and ground chassis = 114 v .       Your inveter  is usable  if NOT connected  to  INPUT 110vac  and use as off-grid  110vac  only .         Picture of my  rev 11.1 control board  with  charger not connected .       There is only 3 wires from the transformer  input to  control board  and L2  go from transformer to  output  fuse .            Ebay  Picture of  PJ  12000 watt  connected  to AC  INPUT  and charger .   IT  also has only 3  wires input from transformer .      The worker  has to stupid  to miss wired  .  

[Lener]

 

Looking at the wiring to these output blocking , I wondering if the 4th output  ( white cloth red markings) wire from the transformer should be connected L2 since there is a double black coming from the AC charger board. The transformer has 4 wire out puts  ( the first one to N2  and second to L2 (control board ), third to the fuse  and exit as double green to N2 )) of course looking a double  red wire from the charger board goes into the breaker fuse  exit as a double red into L1block hardwire …. Wonder if this wiring is correct  or anyone who’ has the unit .surprisingly the single receptacle wired as L1 +L2 and chassis ground working  without tripping the breakers.

Thanks

[Sid Genetry Solar]

Wiring to the terminal blocks would be correct if the inverter runs at no load without tripping breakers.

If you swapped transformer wires around, you likely will blow another set of FETs (by cross-wiring the transformer output taps over each other, effectively creating a dead short on the transformer output).

As it appears that the inverter runs with nothing connected to it, the issue likely has to do with the way the inverter is connected to the breaker panel and/or possible ground-neutral bonding problems.

[dickson]

As it appears that the inverter runs with nothing connected to it, the issue likely has to do with the way the inverter is connected to the breaker panel and/or possible ground-neutral bonding problems.

The  rev 11.3 control board is working   frrom  your video  and  you measure  114vac  from  L2  to  G  .      Do not use the  AC 110  INPUT  for charging  .         The  yellow ground  is like on my  control board  and  the  N  and the  L1  to your control board is correct like mine .     I  do not have charger  connected   so can not tell if your  charger  wiring is correct .      Connect  direct to L1   N  should work  and connect direct  to   L2  N  should work without  breaker panel .    

[dickson]

surprisingly the single receptacle wired as L1 +L2 and chassis ground working  without tripping the breakers.

NOT  surprising  because the recptacle  bypass  all wiring to the charger  board  .      Receptacle  L2  is direct  to the transformer  and L1  is from control board  and transformer .     Transformer  wiring is correct and  control board  is working   with  3 LED on green steady .     

[Lener]

Lots of great informations , thank you. I will be using this unit as lone inverter using a charge controller for my batteries.

Thanks again 

 

 

[NotMario]

Shame, that AMG looks exactly like mine. Never had a lick of issues with it aside from less-than-stellar voltage regulation.

Honestly it sounds like something is wrong with how it's wired to the panel. Have you tried unwiring it from everything except your DC bus and just testing the AC receptacle?
Skip the ground and try some light loads, then some heavier ones if that works.

[Lener]

NotMario,

I myself thought the issue was related to ground as well, after testing the theory the results  unchanged. Using the same exact household load  setting in use for the single AC receptacle “ currently  working fine “ but  ( sparks from hardwired blocks )  I give up trying on this……

Note ….now I have tried this with caution , power conditioning and surge protection completely away from the house and the sub panel from my other system I am able to power some appliances but those protections indicated ground fault.

by the way is it normal for the ongoing humming with or without load or AC input?

 

 

[Sid Genetry Solar]

1 hour ago, Lener said:

by the way is it normal for the ongoing humming with or without load or AC input?

It's a PJ...so yes, a constant hum from the transformer is normal.  (A GS inverter will be practically dead silent at no load as a result of the perfectly matched FET drive.)

No load current on the DC side should be at or under 1A if you have some way of measuring that.  (Clamp meters that can measure DC current are invaluable in any sort of off-grid system!  FWIW most cheap clamp meters can only measure AC current.)

[Sid Genetry Solar]

1 hour ago, Lener said:

I myself thought the issue was related to ground as well, after testing the theory the results  unchanged. Using the same exact household load  setting in use for the single AC receptacle “ currently  working fine “ but  ( sparks from hardwired blocks )  I give up trying on this……

Note ….now I have tried this with caution , power conditioning and surge protection completely away from the house and the sub panel from my other system I am able to power some appliances but those protections indicated ground fault.

We've already kinda established that grounding is messed up.

If you ignore inverter chassis ground, and only connect the Line and Neutral lines, you should not have any problems.

[Sid Genetry Solar]

Of course if the wires are swapped, trying to connect this inverter to a breaker panel will result in sparks and tripped breakers--because of ground-neutral bonding.  It's highly likely that due to the not-isolated-ground problem, you're shorting the inverter out with a breaker panel--which will bond ground and neutral together.  Betcha "inverter case ground" is shorted to the AC output line you're considering "hot"--so shorting "ground" and "neutral" together deadshorts the output of the inverter.

[Lener]

A GS inverter will be practically dead silent at no load as a result of the perfectly matched FET drive.)
Are these FET drive compatible with PJ 12000 AGM?

Edited December 21, 2022 by Lener

[Lener]

A month of  sleepless nights trying to understand the mystery , although I called it uncle…. this AM before hitting the road I was at it 
I took off the ground completely out of the unit to my disappointment result  was not changes, but I discovered something interesting that the AC input L has continuity with the chassis, I do not know all fundamentals about electricity but I repair equipment., Am I wrong to say those input wires (L with chassis continuity N  no continuity )are crossed?