Lyabe 8000W 24V DC to 120/240V AC Split Phase with Battery AC Charger - not for well pump?

[praisetherays]

Just consider that 8000W a model number.
I am throwing in with that J McDonald guy (amazon review) on the not starting motors much ;  Bought one of these LYABE 8000W/ 32000W Peak Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter 24V DC to 120/240V AC Split Phase with Battery AC Chargers to add well pump to the solar side ;  Got a return fixer upper that had been thru the fedex treatment - lot of bent up metal is all, inside looked good with connections all tight and so on ;  Fired it up - replaced a blown fuse or two - good voltage etc on the LCD ;  

Time to have some popcorn - starving, had none since the reliableelectric 3000W went down in the storms month ago - pop, pop - LCD saying 1350W (machine box says 1475W, oh well) ;  Ok, may have gotten lucky on the "fixer upper" ;

Time to run a load of laundry - old machine calls for a 20A socket - filled, then choked when starting the motor - on retries, got 5 or 10 secs - inverter did save itself, did reset itself quickly - well hell - reliableelectric 3000W ran washer just fine ;  Prolly only half the transformer - guess need PJ AMG - will try again manana in full sun ;

Today, 28 Sep, tried again about 11ish (nice praisetherays day), victron saying 28.xx on the batts - no dice, restart gets 10 or 15 secs - damn ;  Also ditched the plug and put the wire in the 240v port below - not sure if L1 or L2, but the shutdown still working ;

So, my questions are:
1. How do I make this POS an AMG to use both sides of the transformer for 120V ??
1a. Where does the sine get flipped for 240v L2 ?  Can I tap in there before that to combine ?
2. Where is the weak point - mosfets look puny - pretty in there though ??  .
2a. WTF PJ ??

[Sid Genetry Solar]

13 minutes ago, praisetherays said:

1. How do I make this POS an AMG to use both sides of the transformer for 120V ??
1a. Where does the sine get flipped for 240v L2 ?  Can I tap in there before that to combine ?

So a split-phase secondary is a center-tapped coil.  Neutral is the center tap, and L1 / L2 are the 2 ends.  This is what causes the "flippage"--there is no circuitry on the inverter itself causing this.  It's a hardware winding of the transformer.

Could you provide a photo of the internals of the inverter?  There's a chance if it's a newer designed transformer that they might have copied GS spec and put the secondaries already separated.  If not, you'd have to split the secondaries where they're joined together--and know what you're doing.  These transformers are wound with aluminum, not copper--so you won't be able to solder to it.  You would need crimp terminals and crimpers to do any work on them.

 

...and I can't say that "AMG'ing" it to single-phase is going to make an improvement either.  Clothes washers have been somewhat problematic even for GS inverters with tight specs.

 

15 minutes ago, praisetherays said:

2. Where is the weak point - mosfets look puny - pretty in there though ??  .
2a. WTF PJ ??

Weak point?  Everywhere 😉.

Seriously, though, the FETs are pretty decent.  Just everything surrounding them leaves something to be desired.

[NotMario]

... Uh-oh, this place just became the go-to for Lyabe inverters. LOL

Split-Phase is Single Phase, just with two windings (or two halves of one winding...) added in series.
It's easy to understand by imagining two batteries in series. If you put one voltmeter probe in the middle, you will get one positive reading and one negative reading as the other probe is moved between the opposite ends. This might be what you can think of as the "flip". Except in AC, since it's alternating, they alternate opposite to one another.

If you want to convert it into 120v.. hopefully you have two high voltage windings on the tranny. In which case you just wire the two windings in parallel rather than in series.

 

[dickson]

and I can't say that "AMG'ing" it to single-phase is going to make an improvement either.

The new AMG  with 6 wires transformer  is  the  most useless inverter for inductive  load according to youtuber video .   Your  rebuilt  Lyabe  doing  1400 watts  is about the best  for any AMG  8KW  made   by PJ  and PJ is Powerjack that  sell  AMG  inverter on ebay .    My 3 years old PJ 8kw  has 40 FETs and  can do 3500 watts  with  ASL4.0   transformer .    

[praisetherays]

Aha, getting educated here - good deal, lol ;  have some pics but not enough - that tag over by transformer and a version ( have heard it on driver board and from another on the bottom side of the main board ) for today here in a little ;

Holycrap, sounds wonderful on the old PJ 8kw ;  Really have no clue what all they did for AMG - just believe that gets more 120vac out ;  Well yeh, saying PJ - not saying the Lyabe word anymore, lol ;

Guess back to the beginning on this 240vac and split phase inverters ;  Thought I learned (recently, relative to my seventy years) that 240vac has the two legs in opposite "phase" or sine direction ;  Is that what you are saying NotMario - do I have that part right ?  And, hence the need for those magic combiners for running two little gennys together for 240vac ;

Sidadmin, ok, got it on the no circuitry needed ;  "aluminum, not copper" - Dang, news is not improving.... ;  Ok, on the clothes washers - need to get "more lucky" and just call the "laundry service" maybe ;  How about "soft start" - have a 4kw here for well pump - have considered wiring one leg thru to check that out but fearing it may let the smoke out and I will have to be depressed for a little, lol

Ok, going to pull the lid and look more ;

 

 

[dickson]

 Really have no clue what all they did for AMG - just believe that gets more 120vac out   

AMG  has a 6 wires  transformer  .         Powerjsck lie about getting more 120vac out  but actually  the AMG   output less .    1400 watt  is good  .     ASL4.0  is a good 5 wires transformer  in the  Lyabe  but the  11.x  control board  and LF driver  is a problem  .   The main board  connector  can be a problem  if  need to repair  and  difficult  to get  parts  to  repair  older inverter that do not have  rev 11.3  control board .   

[Sid Genetry Solar]

58 minutes ago, praisetherays said:

Really have no clue what all they did for AMG - just believe that gets more 120vac out

The only real change for "AMG" inverters is to copy the GS spec on the transformer secondary winding 🤪.

Basically, that gives 2 120v secondaries that can be put in series for 240v split-phase, or put in parallel for 120v single-phase.  The PJ inverters handle this by only ever regulating from 120v--which means that the "other phase" is pretty much unregulated.  (I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't even have an AC filter cap on it!)

Even if your Lyabe only has 3 secondary wires on the transformer, there's a high likelihood you'll be able to split them apart.  However, that's when the real issues start: because if the 2 120v phases aren't voltage-matched (which PJ tends not to do--they'll often be as much as 8-12v apart!) you can't parallel them without causing a lot of heat, power loss and inefficiency.  Adding insult to injury, if your PJ regulates from 240v, you're kinda stuck--because changing it to 120v requires SMD soldering and SMD resistor.  (I've personally never done that to a PJ board...and don't want to.)

Depends how dirty you want to get your hands, haha 😉.

 

1 hour ago, praisetherays said:

Ok, on the clothes washers - need to get "more lucky" and just call the "laundry service" maybe

I personally haven't had issues with washing machines and off-grid inverters (PJ or GS)...and I've only had "technologically intense" HE washers with pushbutton controls--i.e. not the old mechanical washers that would run on bootleg power if you had it!  Several other customers report very persnickety washing machines even on GS inverters (refusing to complete a wash cycle, randomly stopping in the middle)--and unfortunately, as none of them live nearby (nor do they have test equipment!), I have not been able to determine why.  Sometimes more AC output filtration solves the issue--and sometimes not.

 

1 hour ago, praisetherays said:

Thought I learned (recently, relative to my seventy years) that 240vac has the two legs in opposite "phase" or sine direction ;  Is that what you are saying NotMario - do I have that part right ?

It's difficult to explain, and perhaps as a result it's very easy to get confused with 240v split-phase...

In short, you always have a "single phase 240v" sine wave across L1 and L2.

A center tap on the 240v winding gives you a "Neutral" line, and also with that two separate 120v potentials between L1 - N and L2 - N.  However, the AC phase between L1 - N and L2 - N is going to be 180 degrees.  Note that if you short L1 and L2 together, you've deadshorted the transformer secondary to zero--as that's the 240v single-phase sine.

 

1 hour ago, praisetherays said:

And, hence the need for those magic combiners for running two little gennys together for 240vac ;

Any AC signal has to be synchronized to avoid loggerheads competitions between the gennies to see which one can blow the other one up faster 😉.  And if you're trying to put 2 120v gennies together for a 240v output, they do have to be synced 180 degrees apart--otherwise you'll have no 240v.

[NotMario]

1 hour ago, praisetherays said:

Guess back to the beginning on this 240vac and split phase inverters ;  Thought I learned (recently, relative to my seventy years) that 240vac has the two legs in opposite "phase" or sine direction ;  Is that what you are saying NotMario - do I have that part right ?  And, hence the need for those magic combiners for running two little gennys together for 240vac ;

It's hard to explain in text.

There is only one phase.

Essentially you have a single winding on which a magnetic field is applying a potential.
Voltage is merely the difference in potential. If you take that single winding, and put the probes on opposite ends, you end up with 240v. When you place a probe in the center, and the other on either of the two ends, you end up with 120v - but because it's relative to the center, when one end is positive, the other end is negative relative to the center.

I'll link a circuit simulator here in a bit that should make it crystal clear what's going on.

 

A pair of generators is different - you have two completely separate single-phase circuits that first need to be synchronized. Not because the phases need to be opposite, but because they need to be the same!

[NotMario]

Take a look here:

http://lushprojects.com/circuitjs/circuitjs.html?ctz=CQAgjCAMB0l3BWK0CcAWAHAdiwZgRrgGz4YIBMRICk1Iau1ApgLRhgBQAbiC0WuCK0+A8mlq0IQkLglRkCDuKqZBtfuCxVaAmCn3gAXGgA0Axixjw0W3Ci0oMZfSlxoquaOQpCiCMFhoCH5guLisYCi8CNBo5GCQCRhEYuRYFOQRURwA7rwaYNKqhRK5+aLi9BggYqV5BdLs5GpQZRq14GDNHZAcAA6dzSWD4ChD8r0DTTWQ1dMdEKUD5GItKxWSE2XTw+stvXnzlXs9bQKRzRiSY615V6NDXQ+3I+SzIPdv1QcftF8g7XeP3uF1+M2+HCAA

Note the two halves have the same voltage and polarity. Add them together in series, unsurprisingly, you get double the voltage.

On the other hand, add them in parallel...

http://lushprojects.com/circuitjs/circuitjs.html?ctz=CQAgjCAMB0l3BWK0CcAWAHAdiwZgRrgGz4YIBMRICk1Iau1ApgLRhgBQAbiC0WuCK0+A8mlq0IQkLglRkCDuKqZBtfuCxVaAmCn3gAXGgA0AxixiRcKYjny2U2FJA0s0sTGjCQUYcq6Q2MSsYCqwCGEkkWRYhLihVBwA7rwaYToYalApaaLi9FliErnpKOTg-uDlOanp0uwVGbUgGgFZjSDtLW0FncU5AA6VTQ1VYDUQJcP9QSNdffKQuZ3NYFrZy6mrkxsTFVvz3etU3Yf9fRsD51cF5GKbK3s19wLNN1TNrwsl21dz32uuW+Xywo1+XQeA3IYJ+Qy6sNBFQGUxyQA

... and you get the same voltage, but double the amperage capability instead.

[praisetherays]

Ok, pics from today - have more if needed - staying to the transformer wiring and board identification ;  Looks like all in reverse order of choosing - ok ;  The socket tester (gfci +) is showing the neutral and line reversed on the 120v receptacles - is part of what made me switch to the 240v port connection yesterday ;  On the first (last here) is the single white coming off transformer to the back of the panel - all others on other side in bundle with the choke (or actually maybe sensor) ;  Until tomorrow ;

[praisetherays]

forgot the tag

[dickson]

Ok, pics from today - have more if needed 

You has a  AMG  6 wires transformer  .   There  are  2  separate  120vac  windings  YEL-BLK and  YEL-BLK .     My  PJ  inverter outlet is also  wired reverse and I  re-wired it so it is correct  L1  N .   A new  24v  rev 11.3 control board will  replace  your old  rev 11.3  control board  since it is alresdy removed .   This inverter  will be fun to play with .  I  can add  10uf capacitor to L2  N  .   I  can make  2 separate  120vac  outlets  .    Connect the 2 N wires together  and have split-phase 240vac .    

[NotMario]

Have to admit i'm baffled by the ASL4 vs ASL3 tranny. Isn't an ASL4 supposed to be larger?

My ASL3 looks like it has at least double the number of wires going into the choke... And sadly only wrapped around once, with zero spare room to wrap it a second time... :c
Maybe i should get a bigger choke.

[dickson]

Have to admit i'm baffled by the ASL4 vs ASL3 tranny. Isn't an ASL4 supposed to be larger

I was  surprise to see  a AMG  6 wires ASL4.0  transformer in the Lyabe .     My  5 wires ASL4.0 is larger  because the wires diameter is bigger and more wires per bundle .  The  new AMG transformer  will do  1/4  or less of the 8kw advertise .    Powerjack  only sell the rev 11.3  control board  so people will  hhave a very hard time repairing  older PJ  inverter  but Sid will have no problem since  the Lyabe  copy  GS  spec  except the windings  of the transformer use  too small diameter of wires .   

[Sid Genetry Solar]

8 hours ago, NotMario said:

Have to admit i'm baffled by the ASL4 vs ASL3 tranny. Isn't an ASL4 supposed to be larger?

By a couple frogs' hairs.

 

8 hours ago, NotMario said:

My ASL3 looks like it has at least double the number of wires going into the choke... And sadly only wrapped around once, with zero spare room to wrap it a second time... :c

Is there room on the other primary lead?

 

@praisetheraysCan we get an "overview" of the transformer/control board all wired up (instead of all these closeups)?

I can't tell whether the transformer has 2 "115v secondaries" (a la "AMG"), or whether it's wired as a center-tapped secondary.  Also can't tell if the control board is regulating from 120v or 240v...

[NotMario]

3 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

By a couple frogs' hairs.

Perhaps a better way of phrasing the question:
What does the ASL number refer to? Is that merely a reference to the core? Wiring be damned?

3 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

Is there room on the other primary lead?

There's no choke on the other lead. But the wire count appears to be the same... as i would expect.
I did manage to unwind the primary one turn to see what happens. Gonna make some measurements and maybe buy a choke since they don't seem to cost very much...

Fun to have a toy inverter to play with a bit...

Edited September 30, 2022 by NotMario

[Sid Genetry Solar]

1 hour ago, NotMario said:

What does the ASL number refer to?

It refers to an entry in the PJ core size specification.  Has nothing to do with the wiring specification, just a core size from the factory table.

 

1 hour ago, NotMario said:

I did manage to unwind the primary one turn to see what happens.

Should have plenty of wire for 2 turns on the existing ferrite now?

[RobertM]

16 hours ago, dickson said:

 The  new AMG transformer  will do  1/4  or less of the 8kw advertise .    

When I load tested my AMG "8000" inverter, I ran a space heater on L1 and a heat gun on L2 for a total of 27A or 3100W continuous.  They advertise it as 4000W. It didn't shut down

[NotMario]

3 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

Should have plenty of wire for 2 turns on the existing ferrite now?

Ah, no no, you misunderstood.

Plenty of length to work with. No issue there.
Rather, the wire(s) is way too thick to wrap around the ferrite twice. I will need a bigger ferrite to do that.

11 minutes ago, RobertM said:

When I load tested my AMG "8000" inverter, I ran a space heater on L1 and a heat gun on L2 for a total of 27A or 3100W continuous.  They advertise it as 4000W. It didn't shut down

I don't think there's any consistency in what the inverters will do. Seems to be pure luck. You and i got lucky...

Edited September 30, 2022 by NotMario

[praisetherays]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:14 AM, dickson said:

   My 3 years old PJ 8kw  has 40 FETs and  can do 3500 watts  with  ASL4.0   transformer .    

wow, so increase in the number FETs - this one has 24 if I have it right ;

 

Ok, "relative to the center tap"  puts more light on that 240 and phase topic ;

 

Sid,think I have one of the top before tearing it up - look in a minute ;  This is the production machine, so all back together and going ;  adding pic of the day here too on load ;  There is a 110v sticker on top somewhere on the topside ;  Don't see the top - will pull the lid and go in there again tomorrow ;
 

 

Thanks everyone ;  Believe it's time to gather stuff and push it on up in a load test also ;

[RobertM]

7 hours ago, NotMario said:

 

I don't think there's any consistency in what the inverters will do. Seems to be pure luck. You and i got lucky...

Maybe you're right. PJ inverters are odd, but mine cost only $399, and I'm using it. It kept running when the ambient temperature was 115° F, although it was only powering 500W, with the fan running loud. I'll admit that my entire solar power system (800W of panels and 3500 watts of battery storage) is 3rd world. 

[NotMario]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:16 PM, Sid Genetry Solar said:

Should have plenty of wire for 2 turns on the existing ferrite now?

To clarify, when you say 2 turns...

You mean each wire would go through the center the same direction 3 times? (meaning it would wrap around the toroid two times)

From the factory... the wire goes through the center 2 times. In this case, it is utterly full.

[dickson]

You mean each wire would go through the center the same direction 3 times?        NO  

From the factory... the wire goes through the center 2 times. In this case, it is utterly full.             YES   

 

[NotMario]

Ugh terminology differences.

Refer here:

"Two full turns"

I'd interpret that as wrapping the toroid twice.

If what you say is true, one less than twice would just be a wire going through the center, without wrapping it at all... essentially a waste of a choke?
Surely the factory would never do that...

Edited October 1, 2022 by NotMario

[Sid Genetry Solar]

Well, so technically @dickson is correct...

Because from a magnetics standpoint, putting the wire straight through the center IS a "1x core voltage".  Because technically, the wires will make a circuit on the other end, through the load (or whatever).  I actually do this for transformer testing to determine the "core voltage" of a toroid of unknown specification (though technically the core works in magnetic fields, not electrical voltage!)

Making a loop around the actual core (with 2 passes through the center) will give you "2x core voltage"--because technically there's 2 total loops around the core.  One on the core, the other through the load...

 

 But @NotMario understood what I meant 😉.  Partly why I kept stressing "full" turns...though I now realize that my terminology was a bit confusing...

So yes, the factory normally does 2 passes through the center, with one visible loop on the outside of the core.  I find that 3 passes through the center (2 visible loops on the outside of the core) to be "best"; beyond this, you really don't get much improvement.