Pre-Order Discussions

[Sean Genetry Solar]

We are happy to be completing the design and build of our new product line. This pinned topic will house all available info on the 12kw pre-orders.

July 8 2022 - Sid sent off the assembly plans to the factory.

July 11 2022 - Jack confirms the cost to build and ship each unit. Our pricing is announced in the video : 

 

July 12 2022 - Genetry Solar orders and pays for a 12kw sample unit to be produced and sent via air. ETA is 3 weeks for arrival. This is a trial run to ensure that our manual and requirements are followed to the letter. The arrival of this sample unit will coincide with the end of the pre order window allowing to to verify the production units and start the ordering process.

 

[Sid Genetry Solar]

July 29, 2022

• the ordered prototype PCBs & SMD/through-hole parts have arrived at the factory, so now assembly of the prototype can start.
• beginning SMD assembly by hand (just for the test unit; production will be machine-placed/reflowed)
• begin winding sample transformer
• cutting and bending the metal parts for the chassis, etc.
• copper busbars ordered

[Sid Genetry Solar]

August 1, 2022

• test transformer has been completed, and all specifications verified to pass.
• samples of the custom shielded mainboard cables arrive at the factory
• factory now working to find suppliers for all of the unique parts required by the Genetry specification manual...oops, kinda wanted this to happen earlier 😉.

[Sid Genetry Solar]

August 5th

• test control boards are hand-soldered, all but 2 parts have been placed
• went over the factory order list, checking that all the correct types of bolts, fasteners, crimp terminals / hardware parts were chosen [2-3 days for these to come in]
• chassis wiring and connectors waiting on parts to come in
• turns out that the factory did not notice the changed crimping requirements--hopefully this does not result in a delay.  Worst case, they will have to hand-crimp all of the crimp terminals with a manually operated hydraulic crimper.

This is going considerably slower than we were told.   But I guess I'm not surprised...what would have surprised me would be if they had actually met their ETA.

[Sid Genetry Solar]

August 10th

• Copper bus bars are taking a good while to order...they should have been ordered the day the sample unit was ordered.  That didn't happen, and as a result they are slated to arrive at the factory this Friday. 
• Having some entertainment trying to get the factory to get the battery terminals and associated hardware installed correctly.  Never a dull moment...
• everything looking good so far, just going a lot slower than we were initially told.

[Sid Genetry Solar]

August 17th

• Copper busbar test sets finally came in.  Oops...they're not QUITE straight...but as they're soft copper, this should be quite easily corrected
  
   
• Smaller sized crimp terminals for the transformer wires came in, and it looks like they'll do the job a LOT better.  This is good news for production
  
   
• still going way slower than expected....

[Sid Genetry Solar]

August 21st

• Finally have most of the test inverter put together.  Still picking on nitty-gritty details...but it's 95% there...
  
• I will send the factory a revised transformer bracket design tonight.  The design seen above is much wider than necessary, which is causing issues with the transformer leads on the top.  The bracket is also too big (surprising me, as I purposely specced it to be too small)--you can clearly see this on the corners in the transformer bracket (red arrows).  Way too much gap!  Brackets need to be tight against the core, otherwise it'll shift in shipping and turn into a wrecking ball.
• Once I get the test inverter, I'll figure out what's wrong with the busbar spec.  The factory had to cut down the bars to get them to properly fit the terminals.  (I'm suspecting the chassis isn't being bent at exactly the correct locations.)
• The black standoff terminals are the wrong size--but it's not worth losing another couple of days to get the right size ordered in.  But for production, they'd BETTER be the right size, or else!

Hopefully after the updated transformer bracket is installed, this unit should be ready to ship from the factory in a day or so.  Finally!

 

Sean also requested a new-design 6kw chassis "shell" (i.e. just the case with connectors, but no actual internals) for visual purposes.  Here it is on the factory bench (yes, that's the 12kw in the background!)

Wrong screws holding the fan grilles on...they should be black countersunk.

Yeah, that's the new GS 6kw.  Once you scale the case size based on the 120mm fans...you realize that it's really tiny!

[dickson]

Hopefully after the updated transformer bracket is installed, this unit should be ready to ship from the factory in a day or so.

I see the  secondary  L1  N  L2 fit the control board .  I do not see  how the  big choke fit  those  huge primary wires  or is  a separate  inductor  going to connect the primary  winding  to the AC  side heat sink ?       Very  difficult  to make  a custom  inverter  I think  .   

[dickson]

Having some entertainment trying to get the factory to get the battery terminals and associated hardware installed correctly.

In the  USA the spec are in mm  but  in China the  worker  need inches  between  parts to make room to fit  and kind of funny  how thing get measured .  

[Sid Genetry Solar]

48 minutes ago, dickson said:

In the  USA the spec are in mm  but  in China the  worker  need inches  between  parts to make room to fit  and kind of funny  how thing get measured .  

It's actually the exact opposite...

in the USA, the standard "SAE" spec is in inches...but in China, the measurements are all in millimeters.  All of the drawings & files I've sent to the factory are scaled in millimeters.

[dickson]

All of the drawings & files I've sent to the factory are scaled in millimeters.

I know the  China measurement is in mm .    It  seem like the worker do not know how to measure  .    In the USA the worker just say make it fit  or use a  bigger hammer .    I hope they  take accurate measurement in China .     

[Sid Genetry Solar]

6 minutes ago, dickson said:

It  seem like the worker do not know how to measure

They have precision calipers for measurements to a tenth of a millimeter (more than precise enough for our specifications).

The issues start when they don't understand English idioms, or don't understand the drawings.

[AquaticsLive]

1 hour ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

don't understand the drawings

Yeah would be handy if they could read a CAD drawing there is no language barrier with those normally.  I ordered a cabinet from China and they got it perfect first try so its possible just hard to find. 

[dickson]

They have precision calipers for measurements to a tenth of a millimeter (more than precise enough for our specifications).

Your bus bar is a design  that no PJ inverter has .   The  large negative bus bar  eliminate  all the  capacitor wires  and make a lot of space  available .  IT take a while for the worker to  figure why no  wires  inside  and  PJ  will probably  copy  in the  future  for their  PJ inverter .    The worker are not stupid but it takes time for them to learn to  do precision  work .     

[Carlos]

Sid the new design looks really good. One question are the battery terminals made of tinned pure copper like the bus bars or are they brass. It seems that all the battery terminals coming from China are all made of of brass.

[AquaticsLive]

30 minutes ago, Carlos said:

One question are the battery terminals made of tinned pure copper like the bus bars

I asked the question too he said they are copper, well I asked for the 6K but from how he said it sounds both inverters are getting nickle covered copper terminals.  Here is a link to the forum post I asked about them. 

 

[Sid Genetry Solar]

2 hours ago, AquaticsLive said:

Yeah would be handy if they could read a CAD drawing there is no language barrier with those normally.  I ordered a cabinet from China and they got it perfect first try so its possible just hard to find. 

Ha, if only 😉

I do send them not just CAD drawings & renderings, but also actual CAD files (DXF, etc.) which require zero translation effort to send to the cutting machines.

Some things come out perfect the first time (like the heatsinks).  And others...well...don't.  Busbar manufacturer didn't use the DXF cutting file I sent--they recreated their own, but misread a measurement that wasn't too clear on my PDF drawing...resulting in a busbar that was about 55mm too long.  I'm not blaming them per se, as the measurement clarity issue was my fault, but still...I had provided a ready-made DXF cutting file....

 

1 hour ago, dickson said:

IT take a while for the worker to  figure why no  wires  inside  and  PJ  will probably  copy  in the  future  for their  PJ inverter . 

Nope, not gonna happen.

Wires are FAR cheaper than the custom busbars.  I'd still be using wires if the resistance of the busbars wasn't design critical.

 

1 hour ago, Carlos said:

One question are the battery terminals made of tinned pure copper like the bus bars or are they brass. It seems that all the battery terminals coming from China are all made of of brass.

Terminals SAY they're pure copper...but I have some here.  @CarlosDo you have a quick test to determine if something's copper or brass?  (I could probably Google it...)

[Carlos]

@Sid one way is to do a resistance test but best way is to cut one in half. Brass is no good only conducts 28% of what pure copper does. Pure copper bar looks way different that brass. 
Brass is way cheaper than copper as it’s an alloy not pure like copper. You are correct that sticking to wires is way cheaper that pure copper buss bars also bending copper bars is expensive compared to crimping wires.

If you google image brass vs copper pure copper will be more of a red orange color and brass will be more of a yellow gold color. Best way is to cut in half.

[AquaticsLive]

11 minutes ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

Do you have a quick test to determine if something's copper or brass?

I am sure there is a fancy way to figure it out. 

Old school ways.  One way is file down the edge coating and look at the color I have a set of the plastic and metal pieces on a large key ring so may want to buy one of those little sets they are handy.  Brass is much brighter yellow.  Well the other that I know of the real world heat testing the brass ones will get warmer faster. Cheap brass is about 1/4 as conductive as copper, so they will get fairly warm with 100 Amps so doesn't take a whole lot before you notice the problem.

The ones that I got from Amazon looked really nice but with a quick scratch it was obvious and returned them saying false advertising wish Amazon would actually remove the bad products.  

I ended up making my own but that won't work commercially. I have a lathe and 3D printer.  Well could have the factory make them.  Copper is not cheap right now so it won't be cheap no matter how you get them.  I guess that could be a way to tell too if they are too cheap they are most likely fake.

[Sid Genetry Solar]

Well, it does look like they might be (ahem) brass.  I guess I got duped a bit, thought "that looks nice", plus seeing listing stuff saying their terminals were so much better than the competition.  But right there on the listings I picked...says brass.  Didn't even think to check that.

I did find a different listing that said T2 RED COPPER instead of brass--costs ~$2.50 more than the brass ones.  Problem is, it's a completely different design, and I'd have to redesign the busbars to fit...

[Carlos]

Sorry for the bad news as I had a feeling that this was going to happen. I have not found one supplier in China that sells pure copper battery terminals. Also for the 12k it’s even more of a problem not so much for 48v as only 300 amps are going to pushed through them but a big problem for 24v system. With 24v systems you are pushing 600 amps through those buss bars and battery terminals but you already know that. 
 

I am just glad you caught it on time before committing to a production run. As for the terminals it must be done custom just like your buss bar design you don’t have any other choice unless you want to go back to wires and use Anderson 350 connectors then you would have to limit the 12k inverter to only 48v systems.

[Carlos]

From memory T2 red copper is pure copper it’s just China’s version. Be careful as many sites list it as T2 copper and it is not when you receive it. I have searched and contacted many companies and they all told me that they can custom manufacture it minimum order was like 1000 units.

The problem with brass is that it sucks as a conductor 28% of what copper can put out with same size. Also brass is going to put a lot of resistance and heat. You have to go with pure copper and you will have to also ditch the 24v option for for the 12k and the 12v option for the 6k

300 amp buss bar is not that thick however 600 amp buss bar is and will be very expensive that same with the pure copper battery terminals.

[NotMario]

Is it even worth using copper over just using Aluminum?
Aluminum is far more conductive than Brass. And costs a lot less than copper. Pretty sure it costs less than brass too, actually.

There's good reason we use it on power lines.

Not to mention oxidation...

Edited August 22, 2022 by NotMario

[Carlos]

Aluminum would work too however you need to select the correct alloy which from memory is about 78% as conductive as copper. Still it’s a lot better than fake copper AKA brass which is 28%.

[AquaticsLive]

1 hour ago, NotMario said:

Aluminum is far more conductive than Brass.

The old PJ one are Aluminum so not too bad, but I think the plan was to improve safety.  The PJ ones you need all 4 to handle the amps for 12V.  I tried using just two of them at 225 Amps the terminals were over 300F.  So I use all 4 now they still get to about 140F but that isn't too bad.  I am in the process of switching all my other connections to copper to reduce the heat.  Any heat you can reduce is a ton of energy savings. 

Aluminum used for bus bars is about 50% conductivity of copper, the version that they use for aluminum bus bars is an alloy.  100% aluminum is a little better, but the threads are too weak.  Googling 100% aluminum its 61% of copper, but the alloy they use is a bit less.