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Unable to wash clothes with my GS.


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Sid, not sure if a firmware update would solve the issue, but I'm stil unable to wash my clothes useing my gS and thats directly connected to the output socket, not through the panel.

 

It filled up the tub, but, its just sitting ther like a knot on a log.

 

maybe I need to try it with the slave going, but if it can't wash on the master, then if the outlet on the wall is pulling from the master then its not going to make any diff even if the slave is on.

 

 

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Not sure either, I fired up the gs after so long of being down, got two set of agm batts on the master, it was at 25v, stat the washer and it filled up, then sit there for 24 hours with nothing but waterh in the tub, didn't do any agitating or anything.  Hit the buton, it drain, then started filling back up, then it agitated, then drain and then keept on cycling trying tp spin and drain at the same time.  I wish I could see the sign wave, I got a hunch there is something more wrong with this master gs ever since it blown the board.  I'm going to try to get a set of batts on the slave and then try running the washer off its outlet, and if it works then will know. but,  things like this makes me don't want to keep fooling around with the stuff. I mean I can go get my pj or another 3k inverter and run this washer all day long with no issue.  

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4 hours ago, The Blind Wolf said:

Not sure either, I fired up the gs after so long of being down, got two set of agm batts on the master, it was at 25v, stat the washer and it filled up, then sit there for 24 hours with nothing but waterh in the tub, didn't do any agitating or anything.  Hit the buton, it drain, then started filling back up, then it agitated, then drain and then keept on cycling trying tp spin and drain at the same time.  I wish I could see the sign wave, I got a hunch there is something more wrong with this master gs ever since it blown the board.  I'm going to try to get a set of batts on the slave and then try running the washer off its outlet, and if it works then will know. but,  things like this makes me don't want to keep fooling around with the stuff. I mean I can go get my pj or another 3k inverter and run this washer all day long with no issue.  

i don't know if this might apply to your situ but my washer went thru a similar issue that required some maintenance. after the repair i had to do a reboot to the system to get everything sync'd up again. so, if you have a newer unit with processor control, you might consider. 
forgot to mention. it is running on grid, not inverter

 

Edited by Joe S
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On grid the washer runs fine, its only when I throw it to the master gs inverter I'm having isue,

  I'm not sure when it was running good on the inverter if it was running from master or slave.  I have to trace the wireing to find out, that is why I'm going to try running the washer on the slave to see if it runs normal if it does then I know the master is still the issue.  I just got to go in there and hook up the lythuim batts to the slave.  Cause the slave won't do anything if the master is off.

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I think I told sid the washer was working fine when I had both the inverters running the whole house before it blown the master to hell.  

 

Since getting the master back, I've not try running my whole house but one time and over loaded several of the lythuim batts, where they burnned the nickle of the cells.  Even had one 200ah anytime battery stop working all together..  Right now going to run the master off of lead, and the slave off of lythuim for the time beain so I have enough amps for a full load.  besides, I got enough panels to over charge the batts as is. I got to program my skyblue to not over charge the lead batts.

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2 hours ago, The Blind Wolf said:

On grid the washer runs fine, its only when I throw it to the master gs inverter I'm having isue,

  I'm not sure when it was running good on the inverter if it was running from master or slave.  I have to trace the wireing to find out, that is why I'm going to try running the washer on the slave to see if it runs normal if it does then I know the master is still the issue.  I just got to go in there and hook up the lythuim batts to the slave.  Cause the slave won't do anything if the master is off.

Well, other customers having washing machine issues seem to have pegged the issue as being a lack of AC output filtration on the inverter.

Not sure if you have access to 10uF 250v AC-rated filter caps?  (Polyester caps are the ones used in the inverters.)  It's relatively simple to add a cap to the output of the inverter.  Most HVAC stores will have motor start/run caps--you just need 10uF.

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1 hour ago, Merner said:

I'm currently having an issue at work trying to get a washer working on an Onan diesel inverter generator. I'm leaning towards the washer being overly sensitive and detecting a ground fault issue. 

Any and all clues/diagnostics would be very helpful; if I know what the issue is, we can take steps to mitigate it.  Problem is my washing machine isn't complaining 😉.

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 Problem is my washing machine isn't complaining

I  test my washing again after  2 years and now works good with the 15kw PJ .     I  added 10uf to L2  and 6 more capacitors  externally  and  a large choke to the poaitive DC cable outside the inverter   and  a choke to the  ac line inside the inverter .     

 

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To me it reeks of some sort of power demand reduction reaction, ie where the network/grid operator signals to devices to reduce demand during peak periods.  Think along the lines of ripple controllers but more capable, but it could still be power quality monitoring at work.  I know my own Bosch machine will pause the wash cycle for a period, without any indication on the display to say why, if there is a significant dip in the mains voltage, which is something that can happen with a HF inverter.

I can see that excessive PWM making it into the inverter's AC output could trigger both behaviours.  Sure would be interesting to see what is actually going on.

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So how many caps do i get, and what do I do?

NO  not do what I do to the  15kw powerjack .    Your  GS 6kw has enough capacitor and has the choke inside  and your L1 and L2  is exactly  equal  .    My dc battery voltage is keep  constant  at  58vdc to 61vdc  so always a sine wave .     My  washer will not work if dc voltage  drop to 54 volt  and  the surge  will drop the output  to 99 v AC  .   Make sure your battery  is  80 percent  SOC .    Sid say he thought your washer and  inverter  was fix ?    

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Been awhile I got to find out what is the max volt of a lead agm batt is.

I  also parallel  four AGM battery with  lithium ion ev car battery  and the  max AGM voltage is 4.7 volts .    Do not parallel AGM with  Lithium Iron  Ion battery  as the Lithium FE iron battery has a flat charging curve  and may destroy the AGM  because AGM  has a linear charging curve  and  need  slow charging and  max charging  10 amps or less .    

Screenshot (965417) agm.png

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I don't use Ion batts, I use the other ones so I should be good.  though right now, I got my agm and flooded batts running the main.  I just didn't know how high the batts power could go and come to find out. 14.8 is the max, and well, I don't charge my batts but to 14.20, so I'm good either way on if I decided to pair them up with my lfo batts. shouldn't be much of a issue.  I'm kind of thinking of replacing on my lfo to agm and heck with lythuim they got to much problems.  Sit too long, might as well throw them out the door, pull too much power, better, be ready to put a fire out, and replace your BMS cause its going to fail.  AGM batts, bla, they work all day long and you don't have to worry about everything else lythuim has.  And since I'm not in a moveing object, weight isn't a issue.

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Sit too long, might as well throw them out the door, pull too much power, better, be ready to put a fire out, and replace your BMS cause its going to fail.  AGM batts, bla, they work all day long and you don't have to worry about everything else lythuim has.  And since I'm not in a moveing object, weight isn't a issue.

DIY  lithium battery  is too dangerous in a RV or in the  house  unless you know  how to make it safe .      One of the   safe  lithium battery for RV is Battle Born Battery  and way too  expensive .    Parallel or mixing  lithium or Ifo with AGM  may be a problem  when the discharge rate of the battery are different .  I  have not seen any lithium battery   discharge rate the same as AGM  discharge rate  and will destroy the AGM .    The Ifo battery charging curve is FLAT so will not match the charging rate fot AGM .  I only parallel  AGM and lithium  temporary to get  more power  with fuse and circuit breaker .    

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Directly connecting any lithium battery and any AGM battery isn't going to end well.  As @dickson point out already lithium's mostly flat discharge curve vs any AGM's long slope will means a heck of a lot of current can flow from the lithium to the AGM until the voltage equalises.  Far beyond what the manufacturer of the AGM will recommend and well into the rate where the AGM will be off gassing like crazy which will be an explosion hazard and certainly hugely reducing the cycle count of the AGM.

Even if current flows like this are controlled the different charging requirements will see one or the other having reduced cycle counts.  Holding a lifepo4 battery at maximum voltage for extended times to allow the AGM to fully charge will see the cycle life of the lifepo4 fall.  Maximising lifepo4 cycle life by doing lower voltage end point say 28.4 for a 24v lifepo4 will see the AGM never fully charged and it will quickly sulphate up and die.

There are solutions for having lithium and lead acid on the same system and it involves separate 'smart' chargers that maintain both separately and separate 'smart' discharge circuits to match the discharge performance of both.  In effect it's some switching power supplies of one type or another under the control of a micro of some sort.

lifepo4 is probably the current easiest chemistry to live with off grid without getting too expensive, IMO.  They don't care of you PSOC them.  They quickly slurp up and store any available power almost no matter what their SOC is.  They don't have the many hours of slowly tapering charge current that lead acids have.  That last bit really matters too.  If you can't absolutely guarantee to supply sufficient current for those many hours from solar alone you need a generator to ensure the lead acids are getting fully charged otherwise they die.

Living with lead acid batteries is more about you changing behaviour to suit the lead acid than the lead acid being able to meet your lifestyle.

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There are solutions for having lithium and lead acid on the same system and it involves separate 'smart' chargers that maintain both separately and separate 'smart' discharge circuits to match the discharge performance of both. 

I use the Optima 1200 charger  for charging  the AGM battery  each separately  then connect 4  in series for 54v .   The lithium ion is charge to  64v with ebike charger and is not parallel to the AGM until  the inverter run the lithium down to  55v and then parallel to the AGM  with fuse and circuit breaker .    The inverter shut down when  the battery drop to  44v  and then had to recharge separately again  and again and a lot of work and the Optima 1200 is not cheap but make the AGM last a long time .   

Screenshot (240225) optima.png

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Honestly, not sure what the concern is to parallel a LI and an LA. The voltage difference is still pretty small - and the LA will increase internal resistance implicitly regulating current. My shunt shows < 3W cross-charge in almost all real-world circumstances. During charging, the LA will charge slower because the LI will suck all the power (keeping voltage low) until it's full - then the power will divert to the LA - but only as fast as it would typically at the charge voltage in question. If charging is terminated before LA reaches 100% SOC, the LI will slowly charge it anyway.

Typical [alternator] charge voltage with LA is 14.5V for 12V, an equivalent 99% charged LiFePO4 would be 14.6ish. In essence, the LI looks like a typical charger to the LA - if the LI would boil it, the alternator surely would too.

I've not seen any major pitfalls to this, and there are actually quite a few perks - mostly involving handling load surging. Don't knock it before you try it - there seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic.

Edited by NotMario
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Honestly, not sure what the concern is to parallel a LI and an LA. The voltage difference is still pretty small - and the LA will increase internal resistance implicitly regulating current.

Parallel battery  in a 12v or 24v inverter system  is not too much problem .    My inverter run on a 48v to 60v system with 15kw PJ .   The AGM is connected 4 in  series  and the voltage of each AGM will change with the load .   One AGM  may go to 15.1 volt and I have to disconnect the 4  AGM  or if one AGM go down to 10.5 volt then I have to shut down the inverter and  separately recharge each  AGM again .    If I  can keep the system voltage at 55 volt constant  then all the battery are happy .    The 15kw inverter is not happy because with a heavy inductive load  the AC output will not be a sine wave when the AGM  battery drop to 52 v dc .   I keep the DC voltage at 58v  to 62v constant to keep a sine wave at the output of the 15kw PJ  inverter .    I  have an  8kw PJ  that run on  AGM and lithium battery in  parallel no problem .  

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There sure is confusion and there appears to be some of it demonstrated here.  Let's take reaching full charge as an example.  Look at the side of a LA battery.  Odds on there will be two charging voltages (actually ranges rather than single voltages) listed.  One for standby operation.  One for cyclic operation.  What does that mean?  Simple really.

Standby is where the battery will not be discharged for most of its life.  It sits there on float for power failures etc.  Under those circumstances it is practical to only charge the battery to 'float' voltage as it has weeks of time to reach fully charged, and it will take weeks to get there.

Cyclic is where the battery is discharged, to some degree,  more frequently, might be once a day, might be multiple times a day.  All that matter is that current flows out of the battery.  In these circumstances the higher 'absorption' voltage is required to allow the battery to return to fully charged in the much shorter window.  If you don't you are now into PSOC territory.

Most people in the off grid / camping etc community seem to be aiming for lifepo4 longevity, read any number of forums and there are endless discussions about where one should charge a lifepo4 up to for long life.  Even professional and high quality consumer solar chargers will reduce the voltage applied to lifepo4 batteries, often down to 27V as a default, or even completely turn it off once a certain time or minimum 'going into the battery' current has been reached.  DC-DC chargers found in the 4WD/campervan community also perform in this way.

Factory alternators perform multistage charging under ECU (or what ever module handles it in a given vehicle) control.  Long gone are the days where the alternator / generator (if you are old enough to remember generators!) simply tries to pull the vehicle's harness up to 15V indefinitely.  Charging a lithium battery straight of new or old style charging setups is destined for failure.  There needs to be a charger (DC-DC etc) to limit the current the lifepo4 will draw from the vehicle.  If not, that alternator is going to have a short life with a smouldering hot end.  Victron has a discussion paper regarding the issue but the same sort of information can be found from other sources.

Back to charging a paired LA / Lithium battery.  There are now two conflicting objectives.  The desire to keep the lifepo4 at a lower voltage to get more cycles out of it and the need to hold the LA at full absorption voltage for hours on end, typically 5+ unless the level of discharge is particularly shallow, to avoid sulphation problems.

The piper will be paid.  All that is to be determined is who pays.  Will it be the LA or the LiFePo4?

 

Edit: this may be the last thing I have to say here about pairing LA and Li batteries, from other forums that I've participated in as well as just passive reading, some types do not like being told about the problems doing such with the thread quickly devolving into a sh*tshow.

Edited by TheButcher
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