Sam Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 I have a 15000 watt split phase 48v inverter with the ats and ups charging function. My question is how do I get the battery charger function to work on both of these modes plus how do you directly charge with out these funtions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Sam said: I have a 15000 watt split phase 48v inverter with the ats and ups charging function. My question is how do I get the battery charger function to work on both of these modes plus how do you directly charge with out these funtions. Push buttons, toggle switches until something happens, then run for the hills and hope... There is no manual "charge now" function on a PJ inverter, and pretty much zero settings ("charge program setpoints" and the ATS/UPS switch are all that you get). If it doesn't automatically decide to charge, you're out of luck. (Not to mention PJ inverters' reputation for blowing FETs with battery charge mode.) I don't know if the ATS/UPS function works, but the general principle for ATS is: if battery too low (arbitrary setpoint you can't change), switch to AC input. UPS principle is: if AC available, switch to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickson Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 Posted May 28, 2021 I have a 15000 watt split phase 48v inverter with the ats and ups charging function. My question is how do I get the battery charger function to work on both of these modes plus how do you directly charge with out these funtions. I do not do charging with Powerjack inverter or use BYD lithium ion battery . See that a fire extinquisher will not put out a lithium ion battery fire .....on youtube .... Hidden - China's Flagship EVs are Exploding in Huge Numbers ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotMario Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 (edited) 16 hours ago, dickson said: I do not do charging with Powerjack inverter or use BYD lithium ion battery . See that a fire extinquisher will not put out a lithium ion battery fire .....on youtube .... Hidden - China's Flagship EVs are Exploding in Huge Numbers ...... There seems to be a lot of confusion on this... You can lookup the SDS for your batteries to find the suitable extinguishing material. LiFePO4 and NMC's both have typical household ABC extinguishers on the list of recommended extinguishing materials. Even [lots of] water is usually on the list. Most LI variants don't use lithium in metallic form, so flammable metallic lithium isn't the problem, rather the feedback loop of heat and shorting is what feeds a LI battery fire. Suck the heat out of the equation, and the fire should go out. A CO2 extinguisher would be the classic response as it will cool the material down and will not conduct electricity - cooling is the main extinguishing force for these kind of fires. The bigger issue seems to be that these fires can cascade very rapidly and you end up with more heat generation than you can counter with the cooling power of your household extinguisher (or bucket of water...) - leaving you fighting a losing battle with larger banks. Plus the plethora of innocent materials around the battery banks - you have to account for the extinguishing agents requires for those materials in addition to the battery itself - which is why the standard recommendation is a typical ABC extinguisher - which have a pretty wide efficacy. Edited April 6 by NotMario 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickson Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 cooling is the main extinguishing force for these kind of fires. The youtube show the fire extinquisher do not put out the fire . The fire truck use water to put out the fire but by the time the fire truck get to the car the car is all burn and black and smoke . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotMario Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 Yep, the main issue is if it's generating more heat faster than you can cool it down. (There's nothing particularly special about LI fires in this regard) Size and Chemistry are the main drivers here. A large NMC bank will be hard to put out, LFP less so. Incidentally, my suspicion is that a CO2 extinguisher would probably be pretty ideal if your target is mainly the battery. I just happen to carry one of these in the same area as my batteries for a different reason - so it's good to know it would also be useful if they somehow caught fire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dochubert Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 It's my understanding that the battery chemistry that seems to just "spontaneously" catch fire is the lithium ion type. The other types such as LifePo4 are much more stable. For this reason I would not put a lithium ion battery bank within my house. Even my tool batteries are kept out in the shed. My battery bank in my basement is LifePo4. I've never heard of even one instance of spontaneous combustion with this type battery. True, a fire from some other source could get them burning but that's why adults are careful and take safety measures, right? I lost my house to the wildfire of 2003 in southern california. Wouldn't have mattered what kind of batteries I had, they would have burned. I didn't have a battery bank at the time, just a grid-tie solar system. (Trace Suntie 1500) There was absolutely nothing left. Anyway, the point is that if the fire is external to your system, it will burn anyway. Be as safe as you can. Avoid the obvious dangerous types of batteries or store them externally to your residence. And try not to be in the path of a wildfire! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 13 hours ago, dochubert said: It's my understanding that the battery chemistry that seems to just "spontaneously" catch fire is the lithium ion type. I can definitely see how this could happen from my experience with "recycled laptop batteries." Just FYI I do NOT under any circumstances recommend "reclaiming 18650 cells from old batteries" as a result of my personal experience. It seemed noble and a great idea at the time, but after going through it...I don't recommend it. The issue is that older Li-Ion cells often fail as "resistors" where they burn up power in heat--without pulling a lot of current. As a result, they won't blow a cell-level fuse, but they will severely imbalance your battery bank through power drain on just one block (which can cause further battery failure). One 18650 cell I had measured the full 2.2Ah--but if I took it to 4.2v, it got very hot. (4.1v was just fine.) Obviously, a cell arbitrarily turning into a "heater" can easily cause a "spontaneous" combustion. And with large battery blocks, it's impossible to notice a single hot cell in the bank even with a thermal camera. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotMario Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 On 4/8/2023 at 12:58 AM, dochubert said: It's my understanding that the battery chemistry that seems to just "spontaneously" catch fire is the lithium ion type. The other types such as LifePo4 are much more stable. FYI, LiFePO4 batteries are lithium-ion. There are many varieties of lithium ion batteries. The ones you're thinking of are generally called NMC, well known for their tendency for a runaway reaction started by overheating. My LiFePO4 batteries are not my significant concern. Diesel heat and generator are by far my highest concern regarding fires. That is mainly mitigated by using remote fuel, but i keep a couple extinguishers near by just in case. One of these days i want to put in a Halon system, which would get the risk pretty close to zero. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dochubert Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 On 4/9/2023 at 1:05 AM, NotMario said: LiFePO4 batteries are lithium-ion. Well, That"s a bit worrisome! Seems to go against what some very knowledgable people patiently explained to me several years back. (Don't ask me to remember the explanation!) Bottom line was that Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries were much more stable than the 'regular' lithium ion type, and that spontaneous combustion didn't happen with LifePo4. Especially if they were kept in a temperature controlled room (like my basement) and weren't exposed to fire hazards like diesel engines or stored fuel. The biggest fire hazard near my batteries is my inverter, and it's just not practical to keep it elsewhere. With it I just have to hope any Fets blowing up are contained by the metal case. - Previous blown fets 3 years ago were contained by the case. A halon system would be nice, but unless they have gotten a lot cheaper recently, I can't afford one. If anyone knows of a reasonably priced small halon system, I would be interested in looking at adding it to my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotMario Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 No need to worry! LiFePO4 batteries are much more stable than the traditional Nickle Manganese Cobalt or the older Lithium Cobalt Oxide variety you think of when referring to Lithium Ion. But they are both based on a Lithium Ion molecule. My clarification is a mere case of attempting to remove the confusion about what "Lithium Ion" means. It is not a single type of battery, but rather a [rather large] family of batteries. While i would argue that anything can spontaneously combust when it gets hot enough, chances are you don't need to worry about that with your LiFePO4 bank - like i said earlier, even water is listed on the SDS as a firefighting measure - the materials around the battery are of more concern than the batteries themselves in the case a fire does occur. I have a pretty large LFP bank myself - i don't worry about the bank itself catching fire - i worry more about the fuel-oil consuming appliances in relative close proximity to it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 On the safety of LiFePo4...I saw a LiFePo4 bank (from a "hybrid" city transit bus system) that had somehow caught fire. But only one small corner of the cell of A123s was damaged (a dozen cells max?) That never happens with Li-Ion battery banks (NMC/LCO, thanks @NotMario!)...if one cell catches fire, the whole bank and the entire enclosure, etc., etc. is going to be totally destroyed. Worst we've experienced with LiFePo4 is old cells simply not taking a charge. But no "heaters"...at least so far. 9 hours ago, dochubert said: With it I just have to hope any Fets blowing up are contained by the metal case. - Previous blown fets 3 years ago were contained by the case. The case is surprisingly good at doing just that. The biggest concern is the bits of molten metal flying out when the FETs pop their hoods; obviously, if uncontained, this could be a significant fire hazard if there's matches nearby! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dochubert Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 4 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Worst we've experienced with LiFePo4 is old cells simply not taking a charge. But no "heaters"...at least so far. 9 hours ago, NotMario said: LiFePO4 batteries are much more stable than the traditional Nickle Manganese Cobalt or the older Lithium Cobalt Oxide variety you think of when referring to Lithium Ion. Thanks! I feel better now. (Still careful) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dochubert Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 On 4/11/2023 at 8:44 PM, dochubert said: A halon system would be nice, but unless they have gotten a lot cheaper recently, I can't afford one. Got me thinking about it so took a look around. Turns out, they are not as expensive as I thought. (Maybe they've gotten cheaper? Hah!) Automatic with a 155 degree F trigger temp. Have to think about it.... http://www.firefightproducts.com/ The idea would be to extinguish a fire before it caused the batteries (or anything else!) to burn. My batteries are in my basement under the living area, so that's the main concern. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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