PJ is standing me up......

[CrazyDave]

I purchased the 30kw 48v new model. Was very impressed, looks better built then the first 3 I used over the past 3+ years. I have 15kw 24v, 15kw 48v and 20kw 48v. All will run the whole house A/C no problem. 30kw shuts down due to "overload" at around 10kw and will not start A/C/. I emailed PJ  3 times with zero response. Mind you when I placed the order for the inverter the email responce was great, now crickets. Any ideas what could be the problem before I continue with legal action?

Thanks, Dave

[Sid Genetry Solar]

I might suspect the DIP switches on the output board haven't been set?  These basically shunt the amperage feedback sensor--and if not set at all, it'll have a very low threshold to overloading.  (However, I have no idea what the proper settings would be.)

[CrazyDave]

I guess I will see if the dip's are set. And maybe set to same as the 20kw. Thanks for the reply. You guys are awesome

[dochubert]

CrazyDave, I would be very interested in knowing what the settings are on your 20kw pj dip switches (SW1).  Powerjack won't say how to set them.  It is only thanks to Sid that we even know what they do!

There should be a 'table' that shows which switches do what and how to set them for a particular inverter.  If one exists, nobody, including Sid and Sean, admit to ever seeing one.

I have been writing down the settings for SW1 for various inverters with the hope of eventually figuring something out.  Would love to add your 20kw to the list.  And if your 30kw is actually set I'd like to know what it is set to as well (in case that isn't the problem on yours)

Now that I think about it, all of us here should compare settings on every size pj we all have and see what we get....  Or maybe just send all our settings to Sid and let him build a table.... (Sid doesn't have enough to do... 😁)

[TheButcher]

2 hours ago, dochubert said:

Now that I think about it, all of us here should compare settings on every size pj we all have and see what we get....  Or maybe just send all our settings to Sid and let him build a table.... (Sid doesn't have enough to do... 😁)

It'd be pretty easy to whip up a simple form on a web page to do that.  All the author would need to know is how many dip switches are involved and the inverter options - ie, 20kW, 12v (an option to say stop laughing could be added for this sort of configuration)

[Sid Genetry Solar]

2 hours ago, dochubert said:

If one exists, nobody, including Sid and Sean, admit to ever seeing one.

I have heard rumors from Sean that there may be a table of sorts for the smaller inverters.  Never seen it myself.
 

2 hours ago, dochubert said:

I have been writing down the settings for SW1 for various inverters with the hope of eventually figuring something out.  Would love to add your 20kw to the list.  And if your 30kw is actually set I'd like to know what it is set to as well (in case that isn't the problem on yours)

So the sensor here: it's the E128-LF-L (for <9kw inverters) and E135-LF-L (for 9kw+ inverters).  This transformer measures current on L1, and it is used for both overload protection (hint, hint, no overload protection on L2 - N) AND battery charge current limit.

The (10) position DIP switches on the E128 (small) output boards have 10 resistors...so basically 1,024 combinations here...

The (10) position DIP switches on the E135 (big) output boards have 5 resistors...so 32 combinations there.  They're visibly doubled, so 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, etc. are all paralleled.

 

2 hours ago, dochubert said:

(Sid doesn't have enough to do... 😁)

Hey now 🤪🤯

[dochubert]

12 hours ago, TheButcher said:

It'd be pretty easy to whip up a simple form on a web page to do that.  All the author would need to know is how many dip switches are involved and the inverter options - ie, 20kW, 12v (an option to say stop laughing could be added for this sort of configuration)

Cool!  How soon after you stop laughing can you have it ready?

11 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

So the sensor here: it's the E128-LF-L (for <9kw inverters) and E135-LF-L (for 9kw+ inverters).  This transformer measures current on L1, and it is used for both overload protection (hint, hint, no overload protection on L2 - N) AND battery charge current limit.

The (10) position DIP switches on the E128 (small) output boards have 10 resistors...so basically 1,024 combinations here...

The (10) position DIP switches on the E135 (big) output boards have 5 resistors...so 32 combinations there.  They're visibly doubled, so 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, etc. are all paralleled.

Thanks Sid.  The info trickles out and I learn a little more with each bit....

[dochubert]

On 5/21/2021 at 6:35 AM, CrazyDave said:

I emailed PJ  3 times with zero response. Mind you when I placed the order for the inverter the email responce was great, now crickets.

I have had a similar experience with powerjack communication.  I tried to buy powerjack parts from two different ebay sellers and was denied the ability to bid or 'buy it now' from either one.  "The seller isn't accepting bids from you at this time"  WTF?  I have no ebay issues.  I've purchased powerjack parts and inverters from other ebay sellers without problems.  I have great feedback.  I pay promptly.  Why would any seller not want to sell to me?  I've never dealt before with either of those two sellers so how did they pick me to block?  Tried emailing the two sellers.  crickets.

Never got an answer to any of that.  I was simply told that a seller can deny selling to whomever they choose.  On further inquiry it seems those two sellers are both 'shell companies' for powerjack.  I emailed Helen at the powerjack website about it.  She replied, ignoring the question of the two ebay sellers and asking what I wanted to buy and for what inverter?  I answered and never got another email.  Sent 3 more.  crickets.

I had dealings with Helen years ago.  Very nice and very helpful.  Don't know what but something has changed....

[dickson]

I    check  ebay  for  powerjack  inverters  available  by  2  ebay sellers .  All  the powerjack  inverter  are of a new design .  I   think  the  control board  for all  older  powerjack  will  no longer be available .   

[Sid Genetry Solar]

9 hours ago, dickson said:

I    check  ebay  for  powerjack  inverters  available  by  2  ebay sellers .  All  the powerjack  inverter  are of a new design .  I   think  the  control board  for all  older  powerjack  will  no longer be available .   

Not like there is a significant difference between the v4.0 control board and the new v11 control boards.  Same connectors, mostly the same circuit (v11 finally introduced a few changes), same functions, same CPU code, etc.

[CrazyDave]

The 20kw board has all 10 dips on. and the last spot for a resister is empty. On the 30kw board all dips on with added resister to empty spot. Worst solder job I have ever seen, lol

15kw has 1-2 off 3-4 5-6 on, 7-8 9-10 off

[Sid Genetry Solar]

So even with it set up like this (all switches on), it's still tripping out under moderate load?

[CrazyDave]

Around 8-10kw it seems. A/C is whole house at 240v 9600 watts or so. Our 15KW 48v PJ had no problem running same plus pool pump and other things fridge/lights other then some extra cooling. 

I did change out board with one with out the last resister but I have not load test with A/C as of yet.

[dickson]

The  15kw  may  output  more  than  the 20kw  because  the  full size mainboard  and the 20kw  has the mni mainboard  and  2 capacitors and   4 mosfets  per board  .   Your  15kw  running  9600 watts is good .     Thank you for the  information  on dip switches .   

[CrazyDave]

Both 15Kw and the 20Kw have 6 mosfets per set and 5 capacitors each. Also the 30Kw has 6 mosfets per set and 6 capacitors in each board.

[dochubert]

Definitely a chinese solder job.  Looks like 6 is bridged to 7 (makes no difference if all switches on).

Have you tested for bad/blown resistors?  Dip switches actually closed (making contact)?

9600 watts continuous from a 15kw pj is doing pretty good!

On the 30kw, I wonder if you have a case of dual mainboards fighting each other?  As there is no provision for balancing between them, it's possible.  Don't know how you would test for that except by disconnecting one mainboard, then see what happens.  Sid probably has a better diagnosis.

 

[Sid Genetry Solar]

13 hours ago, dochubert said:

On the 30kw, I wonder if you have a case of dual mainboards fighting each other?

Sean has talked in videos about "sync issues" with twin mainboards, etc.--well, let's just say that none of that is electrically possible.  The 2 connectors on the control board are hardwired together, so both mainboards are getting identical signals.

What CAN happen is...with two mainboards, now the (already) overloaded LF Driver has twice as much work.  With it struggling to turn FETs on and off quickly enough, the FETs end up spending a lot more time in their resistive range (potentially also encountering cross-conduction or shoot-through)--causing a LOT more heat.  Secondly, they usually use a ridiculously long ribbon cable on the 2nd mainboard (well, both for that matter)...which adds considerable inductive ring and resistance to the already-too-weak signals.  It's just a rash of poor design.

[dochubert]

14 hours ago, dochubert said:

Sid probably has a better diagnosis.

I knew he would!😁

So then the question becomes;  Is having two mainboards actually an advantage?  Do you gain any power-handling capacity? 

Seems to me you would gain more by adding a second transformer (or increasing single transformer size)

[Sid Genetry Solar]

1 minute ago, dochubert said:

I knew he would!😁

So then the question becomes;  Is having two mainboards actually an advantage?  Do you gain any power-handling capacity? 

Seems to me you would gain more by adding a second transformer (or increasing single transformer size)

The way PJ does it...no, twin mainboards is a liability, not an asset.  This was pretty easy to determine with the 15kw inverters with twin LONG mainboards...simply unplugging the 2nd mainboard would drastically reduce heat and no-load.  (I actually was able to reduce no-load current on a PJ inverter by increasing the dead time setting on the CPU...which is pretty telling.) 

With the smaller mainboards...I recently installed a GS control board setup in a "15kw" PJ inverter which had twin smaller mainboards, and it seemed to be driving alright.  Worth noting that the GS LF Driver is much stronger (4.0A) than the PJ driver (2.5A / 1.0A), and so can handle heavier FET loads.  This PJ inverter had only 4 FETs per mainboard, and they were the lower capacitance NCEP039N10 (as compared to the much harder to drive HY3810 FETs they used to use).  So in total, across the 2 mainboards, it basically had the same capacitance as a single "long" mainboard with HY3810 FETs.  (Yes, I did remove over a foot of ribbon cable from the connectors!)  Last I heard, that inverter was still doing dandy.

The main power limitation in a PJ inverter is the transformer.  Second behind that is FET driving...and then maybe PCB layout and wiring.  Last on the list would be the FETs; more often than not, a very conservative rating on the FETs ends up being far higher than the inverter's rating. 

For example, the NCEP039N10 FETs have a 100C rating of 108A.  (I like to use this as a "conservative worst case" number.)  108 * 6 FETs per quadrant = 648A * 48v nominal (worst case) = 31.1kw redline on the FETs.  So for a 30kw inverter, PJ would need more than a single mainboard--but this of course is assuming that all of the other problems have been solved, otherwise the FETs will smoke long before reaching their true capability.  (Inductive ringing / signal crosstalk / induced noise in the ribbon cable can each VERY easily be fatal to the FETs even with very small inverter loads.)

[CrazyDave]

Update: 

I installed a spare output control board that I have, or whatever it is called. I put all dips on and no resister in the spare spot. And it starts a/c with single flicker of the lights. That is a heavy surge to start. 40 amps 240v when it is running. Not sure what surge is.

The transformer in this thing is huge. Weight is 150lbs just that box alone. It has 2 long main boards with 24 mosfets and 6 capacitors each.

I guess trick now is to get PJ to send me a good board, lol. 

I see if I can do something to ribbon cables, maybe some ferites to stop noise?

[Sid Genetry Solar]

1 minute ago, CrazyDave said:

Update: 

I installed a spare output control board that I have, or whatever it is called. I put all dips on and no resister in the spare spot. And it starts a/c with single flicker of the lights. That is a heavy surge to start. 40 amps 240v when it is running. Not sure what surge is.

The transformer in this thing is huge. Weight is 150lbs just that box alone. It has 2 long main boards with 24 mosfets and 6 capacitors each.

I guess trick now is to get PJ to send me a good board, lol. 

I see if I can do something to ribbon cables, maybe some ferites to stop noise?

We've experimented with ferrites on certain strands of the ribbon cable--but while we've tried all sorts of cable tricks, that's only half of the problem.  The remainder of the problem is with the mainboard layout....

It doesn't help that the high FET's source / gate wires are intertwined in the worst possible way--for functionality anyway.  If the goal is crosstalk, they couldn't have done better with the cable pinout 😉.  Still, with a completely different cable (separate single strands of shielded wire on each FET pair), the crosstalk problems are still there.

 

You would need a good DSO (digital storage scope) to be able to see what's going on with the FET gate signals.

[Sid Genetry Solar]

But glad it's running.

[CrazyDave]

I appreciate all the help and tips. Hopefully this is not all in vain and there is something for others to gain. I will follow up after If any more develops with PJ's repair solution.

Thanks again, Dave

[Sid Genetry Solar]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a hairline crack, bad solder joint, or some other issue between the E135-LF-L transformer and the shunt resistors, on the bad board.  While I don't know the layout of a 30kw PJ inverter, I know the <9kw PJ designs hang the "output" board off the end of the control board with 2 screws--that's pretty much asking for hairline cracks, broken parts or other delights.

[dochubert]

On 5/25/2021 at 8:52 AM, Sid Genetry Solar said:

The way PJ does it...no, twin mainboards is a liability, not an asset.  This was pretty easy to determine with the 15kw inverters with twin LONG mainboards...simply unplugging the 2nd mainboard would drastically reduce heat and no-load. 

I got one of the dual longboard inverters awhile back.  Initial test run had it heating up very quickly at no load.  I removed the second mainboard and it runs fairly decently now.  It is still a backup as my old-style clamshell 3 transformer model runs much cooler, quieter, and more reliably handles higher loads. (V3.6a control board)

 

On 5/25/2021 at 8:52 AM, Sid Genetry Solar said:

With the smaller mainboards...I recently installed a GS control board setup in a "15kw" PJ inverter which had twin smaller mainboards, and it seemed to be driving alright.

Do you consider the smaller mainboards to be a better or 'less prone to problems' alternative to the larger mainboards? (talking single board, not dual)  Better pcb layout?  I have always considered them less desirable due to smaller heatsinks and therefore lower heat disipation capacity, but am willing to revise my view.  Also, they allow less caps.  Original design called for 6.  How many is 'enough' and how many is optimum?