Sean Genetry Solar Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 Building them as fast as I can and Sid is getting that daisy chain code to me really soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Sean Genetry Solar said: Building them as fast as I can and Sid is getting that daisy chain code to me really soon. Refreshing You tube page over and over waiting to see it for my self if it works lol. Then I know my babies are on their way. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 Not so fast...code'll probably come before the YT videos... Tests today have it working fairly decent. Works alright, just 2 tweaks I need to do: MASTER: slow down the frequency shift, so it's not instantaneous. Synchronous motors don't like an instant 1Hz shift... SLAVE: had a weird bug where something went wonky (surge load) and it shut down with an input voltage alarm. Somehow it got set to 80Hz...still trying to figure out how that happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 5, 2021 Share Posted May 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Not so fast...code'll probably come before the YT videos... Tests today have it working fairly decent. Works alright, just 2 tweaks I need to do: MASTER: slow down the frequency shift, so it's not instantaneous. Synchronous motors don't like an instant 1Hz shift... SLAVE: had a weird bug where something went wonky (surge load) and it shut down with an input voltage alarm. Somehow it got set to 80Hz...still trying to figure out how that happened. Boohoo. . . Well, at least the Star Ship 15 Landed, thats a good thing. I just got my second 3d printer up and running in a hour and half and already printing away. Maybe the vid will be up tomorrow. . . Yeah 80hz would be a bad day in my house. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 Kinda rough when the engineer has to catch up with the sales department..........I'm trying @The Blind Wolf, I'm trying! Biggest issue is that it's what you're living on, it needs to work right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterman Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 10 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Not so fast...code'll probably come before the YT videos... Tests today have it working fairly decent. Works alright, just 2 tweaks I need to do: MASTER: slow down the frequency shift, so it's not instantaneous. Synchronous motors don't like an instant 1Hz shift... SLAVE: had a weird bug where something went wonky (surge load) and it shut down with an input voltage alarm. Somehow it got set to 80Hz...still trying to figure out how that happened. That 80Hz would be interesting to feed into the VFD. If it operated at the same ratios as currently on 60Hz, I could spin the 800 RPM motor up to 2600 RPM. It already runs at 2000 RPM. Think that 3 of the inverters in three phase mode could get to 600 Hz?🤪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 5 hours ago, Waterman said: That 80Hz would be interesting to feed into the VFD. If it operated at the same ratios as currently on 60Hz, I could spin the 800 RPM motor up to 2600 RPM. It already runs at 2000 RPM. Think that 3 of the inverters in three phase mode could get to 600 Hz? Not currently. Frequency range should be 40-70Hz. Transformer isn't designed for high frequency operation, and it'd be a completely different product to try to run higher frequencies. Don't think a VFD cares about the AC input frequency one bit; my guess (from not having one) is that the input AC is immediately rectified to DC, then switched through a 3-phase driver at the desired frequency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuhrd Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 11 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Kinda rough when the engineer has to catch up with the sales department..... That describes most businesses and products these days except that most places there is little to no actual communication between the sales department and the engineering/design/manufacturing department except when the bean counters get involved and they need a product to fail after a specific (generally very short) lifecycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 4 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Not currently. Frequency range should be 40-70Hz. Transformer isn't designed for high frequency operation, and it'd be a completely different product to try to run higher frequencies. Don't think a VFD cares about the AC input frequency one bit; my guess (from not having one) is that the input AC is immediately rectified to DC, then switched through a 3-phase driver at the desired frequency. Seems Sean is scrambleing to get the GS inverters out. . No Big Deal right Sid? ? ? *evil Smirk* Just waiting on that wifi update. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterman Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Not currently. Frequency range should be 40-70Hz. Transformer isn't designed for high frequency operation, and it'd be a completely different product to try to run higher frequencies. Don't think a VFD cares about the AC input frequency one bit; my guess (from not having one) is that the input AC is immediately rectified to DC, then switched through a 3-phase driver at the desired frequency. You might be surprised at the transformer. I have one of PJ's step up / step down units that is designed for 50/60 cycle use. It worked just fine at up to 400 Hz. They do rectify it from AC to DC at the start but I also think that they use the input frequency to control the output. The unit I have is a bit strange in that it is setup to allow for 4 wire input at 110Volts. Not many places in the US use 3 phase 110. I need to hack the system in one as they say they are rated 0-400Hz but yet when new, if you dig around in the parameters you find that it doesn't work out of the box because it is set for auto 800Hz output. I have yet to find one of the BLDC Smartdrive washer motors that can spool up as fast as they have it set for ramping up at that setting. Changing the ramp up speed also resets the max Hz down to 400. If I could control it, then I could use a Smartdrive to directly drive a 3600 RPM alternator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 48 minutes ago, The Blind Wolf said: Seems Sean is scrambleing to get the GS inverters out. . No Big Deal right Sid? ? ? *evil Smirk* Just waiting on that wifi update. . . . Still trying. Not too surprised to find that I have to take load info from the WiFi board to get both phases...which is a lot slower reacting than the current sensor on the mainboard. Should still work...if a little slower to react. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Still trying. Not too surprised to find that I have to take load info from the WiFi board to get both phases...which is a lot slower reacting than the current sensor on the mainboard. Should still work...if a little slower to react. Is that going to cause a issue with say a wash that cycles on and off? Also my 3d printers they come on and off I'm guessing to keep it heated. it'll kick on like at 150watts for a few seconds then hit 325watts for another few seconds then kick off while printing. I not sure how reliant they are to the hz, cause I know some things use that to mesure timeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 Small wattage loads won't be a problem. Inverters might oscillate a bit as they try to balance the load, but they should be fine. It's the big loads >6kw switching on/off that could cause a few hiccups/errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 There is no way around adjusting the frequency for the inverters to communicate...without redesigning the control board and figuring out a complicated feedback/load sharing cable. Most modern appliances could care less about frequency shift...though some older devices with a clock probably won't keep good time. A possible immediate solution would be to set both inverters up for 120v single-phase (50A), and run them in split-phase sync for 240v (one inverter per phase). No frequency shift, and it will work right now. "Master" inverter could run 120v charge...and incidentally, the "slave" inverter will provide the other phase. (Which poses a bit of a problem for battery charge if the generator can't offset the total system load...it's kinda hard to fill something up if it's being drained faster than it is filled.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Small wattage loads won't be a problem. Inverters might oscillate a bit as they try to balance the load, but they should be fine. It's the big loads >6kw switching on/off that could cause a few hiccups/errors. Which is a drier, stove. Are you still making them both work at the same time shareing the loads? or still only haveing one handle all the load until it hits a wall? Seems if both are shareing then that would handle the power requirment more easier then just one doing all the work then begging to the slave to help me, help me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: There is no way around adjusting the frequency for the inverters to communicate...without redesigning the control board and figuring out a complicated feedback/load sharing cable. Most modern appliances could care less about frequency shift...though some older devices with a clock probably won't keep good time. A possible immediate solution would be to set both inverters up for 120v single-phase (50A), and run them in split-phase sync for 240v (one inverter per phase). No frequency shift, and it will work right now. "Master" inverter could run 120v charge...and incidentally, the "slave" inverter will provide the other phase. (Which poses a bit of a problem for battery charge if the generator can't offset the total system load...it's kinda hard to fill something up if it's being drained faster than it is filled.) Way not have both well never mind you can't do both on charge mode, cause the dang slave is useing the input. geesh. too bad you can't use like hummmm, the l2 on the slave output to conenct to the l2 input on the master as a hey bump up the power now. . . not sure if that is possble. sort of like a sense wire. that would leave the l1 and N for the gen to work at 120, and the l2 to be a sense line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 1 minute ago, The Blind Wolf said: Way not have both well never mind you can't do both on charge mode, cause the dang slave is useing the input. geesh. too bad you can't use like hummmm, the l2 on the slave output to conenct to the l2 input on the master as a hey bump up the power now. . . not sure if that is possble. sort of like a sense wire. This is not possible, as the output terminals cannot be separately controlled. Output terminals basically directly connect to the transformer secondary, that's it. Sounded like you only had a 4500W generator anyhow, which one inverter could handle. 6 minutes ago, The Blind Wolf said: Which is a drier, stove. Are you still making them both work at the same time shareing the loads? or still only haveing one handle all the load until it hits a wall? Seems if both are shareing then that would handle the power requirment more easier then just one doing all the work then begging to the slave to help me, help me. Yes, the goal is to loadshare roughly 50%. It wouldn't be possible to have the master take 100% of the load and then "call for help" with bigger loads--as then the wiring on the master inverter would have to handle the full 12kw potential output load. Which it isn't rated for. Currently, the "master" inverter provides a frequency droop that's proportional to the load percentage--and the "slave" inverter(s) respond by trying to output that same percentage of their power rating. Bit of a dance as they find a balance point. Originally was trying to use load-caused voltage drop as the "pony up the power" signal, but that only works if there's 20-30 feet of wire between the inverters to lose power in. The issue I just ran into is that the CPU charge current sensor only works on one phase. WiFi board can see total output power, but it only samples power 3x/second. So....let's see what I can do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 So that means on the Rev 3 board you going to have two phase sensing on the cpu I take it? If I didn't have to cut wires and stuff to upgrade that darn PJ 8k I got, I would upgrade it to a 24v with gs board and wifi, but when sean sent me that split phase board, and I leisten to the video on what to do, I kind of chicken out, since well, there were things I didn't understand int he vid cause he didn't explai n it all and never would respone to emails or calls to ask for certin things, so I got a board split phase sitting in a box doing nothing. . . don't even know if its a gs board or a pj board, I think it is a pj board that has split phase cause the pj I got don't have true split phase, but after watching several vids on you tube as of the last two weeks, folks are taking those inverts and getting a auto transformer and turing them into split phase with out een haveing to open up the inverter. If I could figure out what auto trans they useing I might do that to my pj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 Pretty sad, I think i spent $200 bucks for that blasted board, that I can't do anything with. Anybody need one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 4 minutes ago, The Blind Wolf said: So that means on the Rev 3 board you going to have two phase sensing on the cpu I take it? Not sure. Considering the option, but it would probably be a different sensing method. For now I'll have to have the WiFi board tell the CPU how much power it sees...and hope that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 34 minutes ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Not sure. Considering the option, but it would probably be a different sensing method. For now I'll have to have the WiFi board tell the CPU how much power it sees...and hope that works. Uhm, one thing, might want to have sean unhook the wifi board during operation to make sure the gs invert go into fail safe. . . just in case lol. . . How long before we get the results back on the test run of the code? or are you still codeing more on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 If the WiFi board comm is lost, the inverter will go into error mode within a few seconds. That's standard procedure. Also, the CPU will have a fallback to what the inverter measures (on L1) if the WiFi board does not report output power. Worst case, if power is backfed, the master inverter will try to GTM throttle the slave down--and if that fails, it will shut down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 Working on implementing the functionality now. But kinda hard to update the house inverter when it's running a heat pump to warm things up a bit in here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blind Wolf Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 24 minutes ago, Sid Genetry Solar said: Working on implementing the functionality now. But kinda hard to update the house inverter when it's running a heat pump to warm things up a bit in here... Its that cold up there?? Just put on more cloths lol. . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Genetry Solar Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 Was 45 degrees last night...says it's up to 67 right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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