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Negative Terminal of Battery as Ground


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18 minutes ago, CHG_Coin said:

I've heard that the negative terminal of the battery can, in some circumstances, be used as ground.  Is this advisable?

  Is there any kind of benefit to charging the battery?

Uh, from what I know, there is no reason to ground a battery, DC is a one way in and one way out, I wouldn't give it a third leg to be a bad thing, I mean, every battery thing don't have ground, otherwise nothing would be wireless :P.

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Ac on the other hand is a different beast in it self, Its a hot wire that is going back and forth from postive to negative at 60hz, it needs a ground, simply because the power provideing either a generator or inverter, would short out, because the N wire is sort of like the ground of AC, but, only in a sense thatits not, so having a ground wire going to earth helps any stray voltage to be dispated at the shrotest distance instead of flowing back to the source.

 

That how I understand it.  I'm not a eletriction by any means, I just learn as I go and learn to take it when it gives you a shock and learn why lol 😛

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1 hour ago, CHG_Coin said:

I've heard that the negative terminal of the battery can, in some circumstances, be used as ground.  Is this advisable?

  Is there any kind of benefit to charging the battery?

No benefit to charging. Earth grounding is useful if you have a system spread out over a large area. You are trying to create a zone around your premises where everything is at the same potential so that if some unwanted high voltage event (like lightning) occurs, it has a path around your equipment. But unless your ground wires are large and connected to every other ground in your system, voltages can still be quite high due to the resistance of the wire.

Leaving a system ungrounded and spread across a big area can wreak havoc even if the lightning strike is just nearby but not direct. 

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3 hours ago, InPhase said:

No benefit to charging. Earth grounding is useful if you have a system spread out over a large area. You are trying to create a zone around your premises where everything is at the same potential so that if some unwanted high voltage event (like lightning) occurs, it has a path around your equipment. But unless your ground wires are large and connected to every other ground in your system, voltages can still be quite high due to the resistance of the wire.

Leaving a system ungrounded and spread across a big area can wreak havoc even if the lightning strike is just nearby but not direct. 

This is obviously very experimental, but I had seen it here where the batteries start to resonate with the AC given the following setup.  Curious as to what's going on here when the batteries appear to behave as AC?  If this micro charging and discharging at 60 HZ (or any other frequency) would harm the batteries or make them more efficient?  Interesting.  Apologize for the over-unity concept finding its way into this thread but notwithstanding, what the heck is going on here?
 

 

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Not viewed the clip :), but inverter current draw is related to the sine wave output on the AC side, and what the loads are doing in terms of power factor / harmonic draw.  If there is significant line frequency ripple on the battery with no explicable reason such as the system being tied to earth somewhere, it is often a case of a too small a battery for the load or a defective battery.  If excessive ripple is seen at the inverter's DC terminals that can be a sign of the cabling not being sufficient rated.  Victron did a paper on the topic of DC ripple and recommends no more than 200mV peak (peak or peak-to-peak, can't remember).

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1 hour ago, CHG_Coin said:

Apologize for the over-unity concept finding its way into this thread but notwithstanding, what the heck is going on here?

I have to admit that I have yet to see any shred of logical reality in videos like these.  They always seem to be loads of hype mixed with equal parts you-know-what.  I have absolutely nothing against the concept of "perpetual motion" or "free energy", etc., etc. (think it's a great concept actually)--but more often than not, what's presented is a bunch of B.S., with none of the described ideas being even remotely feasible.

Love it when those vids purport to show free energy generated by coupling a car alternator to a synchronous AC motor, wiring the end leads together, and bingo, enough free energy for your entire house.  Never mind that the synchronous AC motor is actually a BRAKE if DC is applied to it (and a pretty good one at 12v, mind you!), nor that the alternator is 1/10th of the necessary voltage, to mention nothing of the synchronous part...or the fact that single-phase synchronous AC motors have horrible efficiency......hehehehe.  But people fall for it.

Such nonsense videos use all sorts of "new" and "suppressed" terms that are purely made-up nonsense.  For example, I had someone tell me that if 2 transformer secondaries were connected in series, with one of their polarities reversed, they'd generate "dark energy."  (In reality, the 2 secondaries will cancel each other out, and you'll get 0v on the "end"...because +90 + -90 = 0.)

What is going on there?  More B.S. than is on a field after a farmer's automated tractor just accidentally ran the spreader over the same field 3 times in a row 😁.

And no, I didn't watch the video.  Don't have to ;-).

1 hour ago, CHG_Coin said:

Curious as to what's going on here when the batteries appear to behave as AC?

B.S. 🤣

1 hour ago, CHG_Coin said:

If this micro charging and discharging at 60 HZ (or any other frequency) would harm the batteries or make them more efficient?

Likely neither.  Though it is worth noting that lead-acid battery desulphation systems seem to run some sort of a frequency into the batteries to break the sulphates off.  Maybe there's some way to leverage this in an inverter??  Or maybe it only works one way (i.e. during charging).

Generally speaking, the intrinsic series resistance of a battery means that the higher the load, the lower the efficiency in power transfer.  This explains why most batteries will produce more watt-hours of energy if discharged slowly, vs discharged at a high rate of speed.

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Wiring the negative of the battery to the AC neutral will do nothing but allow fault current to find its way to where it needs to. You need a complete circuit for current to flow, so unless an AC conductor shorts to a DC conductor, nothing will happen. But it is true that the DC from the battery will fluctuate based on the load on the AC output.

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20 minutes ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

@InPhaseThanks for saving me the time 😉.  Didn't want to add to their "view" ticker anyhow.

And if you notice, right after he thought he had it worked out, his next to last video was "Gerard Morin: China Controller update" which was right after "China Lab Video + Early loop evidence" Then poof, he disappears like most others who are hoax driven.

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4 hours ago, Sid Genetry Solar said:

Generally speaking, the intrinsic series resistance of a battery means that the higher the load, the lower the efficiency in power transfer.  This explains why most batteries will produce more watt-hours of energy if discharged slowly, vs discharged at a high rate of speed.

Right, so if you charge and discharge the batteries only a little bit at a time (in the form of a wave), instead of in bursts, you should be able to extract the energy from the battery at the most efficient rate.  That's what I thought was interesting about it.

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7 hours ago, CHG_Coin said:

Right, so if you charge and discharge the batteries only a little bit at a time (in the form of a wave), instead of in bursts, you should be able to extract the energy from the battery at the most efficient rate.  That's what I thought was interesting about it.

Not necessarily.  Amperage causes resistance to generate heat.  There is no magic way around drawing (x) watts from battery--either you do it in a straight DC line, or pulsed--but at the end of the day, the pulses will have to be much higher than the straight DC line, generating more heat for a smaller time interval.  So a moot point altogether.

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In short: a 1500W space heater powered by 120vDC or by 120vAC...at the end of the day, will generate exactly the same amount of heat.  Sure, the AC will have peaks up to 170v...but that's a mathematical compensation for the zero crossing where no power flows (thus the commonly referenced RMS AC equation, where an RMS AC voltage has the exact same power as a DC voltage of the same numerical value, i.e. 120vAC -> 120vDC).  Same work, same wattage, same heat.  Same thing with a battery...no rocket science here.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/16/2021 at 9:49 AM, Sid Genetry Solar said:

In short: a 1500W space heater powered by 120vDC or by 120vAC...at the end of the day, will generate exactly the same amount of heat.  Sure, the AC will have peaks up to 170v...but that's a mathematical compensation for the zero crossing where no power flows (thus the commonly referenced RMS AC equation, where an RMS AC voltage has the exact same power as a DC voltage of the same numerical value, i.e. 120vAC -> 120vDC).  Same work, same wattage, same heat.  Same thing with a battery...no rocket science here.

It is when you work with polyphase circuits that the fun really begins with the calculations.

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